Minter Dialogue with Sophie Devonshire
Sophie Devonshire is CEO of The Caffeine Partnership, an award-winning strategic consultancy, specialised in brand-led business growth. Sophie is also a keynote speaker and author, having written 📖 Superfast, Lead at Speed, How pace can drive performance, published by John Murray Learning. Superfast was shortlisted for Best Leadership Book at the Business Book Awards 2019. Sophie has also been founder of Babes with Babies, was Board Director at Quintessentially, a leading Luxury Lifestyle group. In this conversation, we talk about how branding has changed, the role and essence of purpose in business and how to be superfast, successful and purposeful.
Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to firstname.lastname@example.org. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to go over to iTunes to rate it.
To connect with Sophie Devonshire:
- You can find Sophie on Twitter: @S_Devonshire
- To follow Sophie on Instagram
- Sophie Devonshire on LinkedIn
Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s.
Transcription of the podcast with Sophie Devonshire
The following is a transcript of the interview, using Otter.ai. It’s been edited from the original for better comprehension. If there are errors, I apologize in advance. You’re welcome to comment them below and we’ll fix.
Minter Dial 0:03
Sophie Devonshire, how lovely to get you on the podcast. You and I met and and it was almost a meeting that could have been an infinite meeting because of so many things that we shared, people we know and energy that I appreciate. So in your own words, Sophie, describe yourself.
Sophie Devonshire 0:24
There’s an interesting question itself. So I’m the CEO of the Caffeine Partnership. I’m a brands person, I’m an entrepreneur, and I’m a curious person. I’m always interested in understanding more about business and people, and the way in which leadership can transform the world in which we live. I’m also an author. My book came out last September, so I’m still reveling in the novelty of being able to say I’m an author, as well. It is a funny feeling, isn’t it?
Minter Dial 0:54
I do remember the first one. So your book is called Superfast, Lead at Speed, How pace can drive performance. Tell us the main gist of your book?
Sophie Devonshire 1:06
Well, I found myself in a situation a couple of years ago, where the clients I was working with, and the friends I had, who were senior leaders inside organizations, were frustrated about two things. Firstly, they were often very frustrated that despite the incredible advances in technology and opportunity that we see in the business world, they felt like their businesses weren’t moving fast enough. But at the same time, they were also frustrated that they had email in boxes where the emails were multiplying like rabbits, they had to do list twice, as long as that arm they had huge things they wanted to do. And they were just overwhelmed by the pressure of the hot breath of the shareholder and the impatience of their customer. And so they’re exhausted. So what I wanted to do with this book was to explore how we can lead how we can work how we survive and thrive in a world which is moving super fast, and to understand all the positives, and the opportunities that that gives us now and this really rapidly changing world, but also understand how to deal with the pace with grace. And to do it in a way which is enables us to be responsive and responsible. So that’s the theory and the thoughts behind the book, trying to find ways to help people navigate their way through exciting and interesting times in business.
Minter Dial 2:30
Well, I’m certainly a buyer of that. You recently got it into an audio format as well. What was the reasoning behind that? Did you narrate it?
Sophie Devonshire 2:40
I did. And it was fascinating, actually, because as soon as the book came out, a lot of people asked, when it will be available on Audible. It’s a really different way to understand and listen to books, you can do commuting, etc, etc. But one of the reasons I was really keen to make sure I narrated it, is because the statistics about women writing business books and selling business books, certainly very, very low, and certainly narrating them. So I think in the top 40 business books at the moment on Audible, only one is narrated by a woman. So there was a point of principle to be able to talk about it. And you know what, it was also really fun to read through the book again, to actually think about it at a slightly different pace and bring it to life. So I’m really glad I was able to do that.
Minter Dial 3:27
There’s nothing like actually reading words you had written to be read as opposed to be listened. And speaking of women narrated books, not a business book, but a book I certainly appreciated listening to was Michelle Obama’s Becoming, which is really very interesting. First of all, she’s got a beautiful voice, which helps. Second of all, her writing is sine qua non beautiful. And of course, you got the insights of everything that happened in the White House. So it is it is a great book. Congratulations for that. Sophie, it certainly sounds like a lot of people are struggling with this pace of change, yet constrained by the same old 24 hours. What about the personal life and all that how what’s your approach to managing the personal life and this notion of balance? is there is there such a thing in your mind?
Sophie Devonshire 4:21
One of the interesting things are the insights and the people I spoke to in researching the book. So I had a whale of a time speaking to 100 different global leaders, all with very different business challenges, all with very distinct personalities and personality types. And all of course, with different home lives and personal situations. A huge number of them talked about the desire to get to move away from the notion of a work life balance, partly because they were, as psychologist Adam Grant calls them engaged workaholics; so for them work was their life. But also partly because it’s isn’t as straightforward as we are switched on. And we’re switched off the needs to be another way of looking at it. But one of the areas that we explored in Superfast was to understand the concept of energy management versus time management. And energy comes from all kinds of different areas, depending on what type of person you are. But certainly everybody I spoke to, everybody I continue to speak to, wants to find a way to have a life where they can do more than just work. And where a life outside work actually informs and energizes the work they do. So it’s a very complex notion. And it’s individual for everybody. But it’s always worth looking at and understanding what you prioritize and how you bring those things together. And there are some tools and techniques for really making sure you get that balance, right. And some ways of measuring it as well.
Minter Dial 5:55
It’s been my observation, Sophie, that there are many people the as you call them these workoholics, or people whose life is work. And yet I here is this little narrative that I keep on hearing about someone’s doing this work. But the thing I really love, I do this as a hobby. And I kind of consider that a side hustle doesn’t yet make money, but it actually consumes their energy, gives them energy, and is the thing that really makes them tick. And yet they’re sort of stuck in this other mousetrap that isn’t where they’re going. Yes, they’re getting the money. And then now you got them doing a real job, a side hustle, and they still trying to fill their personal life. Is that something you’ve observed as well?
Sophie Devonshire 6:42
I think whatever you’re trying to do in your life, the challenge is fitting it all in and working out what you really want to do. And one of the big areas we explore in Superfast is to understand, well, it’s the best bit of advice I’ve ever received a few years ago, when dealing with overwhelm. When someone said to me, darling, was a very good friend, they said, darling, you can do anything, you can’t do everything. And one of the biggest challenges for all of us, if we’re ambitious, if we want to get the most out of life, is deciding what we don’t do. So to become a great editor of our lives. So yes, if that side hustle is important, yes, if your family is important, you have to make it happen. But that involves saying no to other things; that involves being strategically lazy, and doing what only you should do, and having the confidence to not do other things, which is often very tricky, if you’re a nice person. If you’re a decent person, it’s actually harder to say no, to delegate, to automate, to make sure you’re not doing things that you shouldn’t be doing. And that I think is one of the biggest challenges for anybody who’s trying to achieve something.
Minter Dial 7:55
It would be like saying no to a friend, hey, let’s go out for a drink at the pub. Yeah, but I can’t, if I do that, that’s an hour and a half. And that probably cuts into my sleep actually. And so you need to be a little bit selfish, the other person might be a little offended. And so it goes. Sophie, you, you and I both enjoy branding and the notion of brand today. Let’s start with just how how important is brand in your mind today differently from the past?
Sophie Devonshire 8:23
I think the concept of brands has changed enormously. And what’s fantastic is our understanding of how to use brands in business has really developed as well. So I’ve always worked in the brand world, both inside organizations, and as a consultant. But what’s changed now is that brands continue to be a shortcut for people. And in a super fast, rapidly changing world, your brand is more important than ever. But the most interesting area is where we discover people who’ve taken their organization brand and are building that not just their product brands. And those people I think are starting to understand that brands are built from inside out, it’s not just a sticking plaster that can hide a bad business or make something better than it isn’t. They now really do have to be built on truth. And that has changed because of social media because of a more transparent world. You know, we can see what leaders are doing. And that impacts on the brand as well. So I think there has been a fundamental shift in the desire for brands to be more truthful, and all kinds of different ways, which in itself is a real positive for society and for business.
Minter Dial 9:36
So, it’s funny that you should say this expression inside out. I mean, of course I hundred percent subscribe to that. And yet there is a thing called customer centricity which brands and companies are jumping on saying are the customer is King, the customer pays my bills. So you need to be outside in, you actually need to focus on the shoes, getting in the shoes of the customers, figure out what they want, and then organize that within. So how do you how do you what’s what’s the narrative for you. So for us, you fix between inside out and outside in?
Sophie Devonshire 10:06
So we took that insight in and inside out as a way of looking at it. So actually, it’s built from having an organization where people do get as close as possible to the customer to be able to anticipate what’s happening. And actually, that’s very much a principle about pace. If you have an organization that wants to move at the right pace, human understanding is absolutely critical. Technological understanding will speed things up as well. But human understanding, understanding yourself, understanding your team and getting as close as possible to your customer. But you need to build it from inside the organization so that the processes, these customer experiences, and the communications are all not just an afterthought and artificially put there, but are true, relevant and compelling. And bringing that all together requires leadership, I think there’s been a real shift away from thinking about brands as just a marketing opportunity. And a true brand inside an organization brings together marketing, sales, finance, customers, everything. Because it is everything that you do that the customer now sees and experiences as the brand, not just what you say.
Minter Dial 11:18
So that’s inside out and insight in! Love it. Well. So another thing that you and I share is this notion of purpose. Let’s say that we’re not alone, the words are used regularly and so many companies, write their meaningful purpose on the wall, and it just doesn’t happen. But in your mind, actually what is purpose, what qualifies as purpose? How do you define the notion?
Sophie Devonshire 11:46
Purpose has had huge backlash recently, because it’s been seen to some people as artificial or irrelevant. That purpose has been around for us all as humans for hundreds of years. And and for businesses as well. It’s the North Star for an organization for me. I’m more interested in purpose for individuals and purpose for organizations, in some ways than just purpose as an advertising tool. And purposes, for organizations, it’s an aspirational reason for being; it’s a way of bringing people together beyond just profit. And it’s always been that way. You know, the Quakers with their Cadbury’s, and other companies. Hewlett Packard, in the 1960s also talks about purpose. And I like it when people use other words to describe it as well. So a lot of people talk about mission-led organizations or vision-led organizations. Whatever it is, for me, purpose is a why; it’s a way of bringing people together, it’s a narrative, that also has to be true, has to be meaningful. So what purpose brings is it brings meaning inside your organization. And at Caffeine, one of the things we talk to leaders about is the need for four things to make things work, inside an organization which is moving super fast. You need meaning, you need coherence, you need engagement, and you need leadership to bring all that together. So meaning is purpose. It’s the Why are we doing this? How can we bring meaning to this, which helps motivate people and get them moving? And the word motivate actually comes from the Latin to move: movere. So purpose for me, drives pace, and purpose makes work more engaging, more meaningful, and more fun. So I definitely think it still has an important role to play. And I want to keep fighting the cynics who believe that it’s that it’s just something that can be words on a wall rather than a way to bring together great organizations for a greater purpose.
Minter Dial 13:49
Well, you might be fighting cynics, but you’re certainly not fighting Sinek. (Simon Sinek)
Purpose. So we’ve got this idea that it moves people. Is purpose something that every company can have? And I want to qualify that statement by something I hear regularly, which is well, money moves me.
Sophie Devonshire 14:16
Yeah, and money will always move some people. But the science shows that it is not the number one motivator for most people. And the evidence you see all around you plenty of people choosing to do things with their lives that aren’t just about money. And now money has an important role to play. And people take jobs because of their salary. But people also often want to be part of something to be building something to have that sense of purpose and bringing it together. And it doesn’t have to be a purpose that is linked to Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) or something that’s particularly complicated, or environmental, or whatever. And there’s some great examples of organizations who talk their purpose in different ways. Lego, for example, brought itself back from the brink of bankruptcy, partly through a new inspiring narrative around how they inspire the builders of tomorrow. You know, the concept of what they can do and bring everything together is fantastic. I love the example of Premier Inn, it’s a budget hotel chain, and its purpose is to give people a good night’s sleep. It’s a purpose beyond profit, it’s a purpose that actually will drive profit. But it’s a really great way to filter decision making for them as an organization and help everybody feel inspired. that what they’re doing is something that’s positive. And I believe that business has a really important role to play in society, that it brings dignity, and has a critical way of bringing communities together. But it often needs purpose to help drive that.
Minter Dial 15:57
That’s great the idea of the Premier Inn at the same time, it makes me think: Well, does purpose have to be unique? Because at the end of the day, what hotel doesn’t want to give you a good night’s sleep? I mean, you have to imagine that’s what they’re trying to do, why they invest in beds and all that. And do you think that every company can have a purpose?
Sophie Devonshire 16:19
Well, the point about does it have to be unique, there is a there is a focus that’s needed. If you want to bring people together and really galvanize and grow an organization goes back to this question of editing, you have to choose what the most important things are, and whatever you’re doing, and whatever you’re saying. So though, if we organization would like to give people a good night’s sleep, it’s that unrelenting focus or primary in which enables them to say, right, actually, we’re not going to invest lots of money in building spars or, or working on the breakfasts, we’re going to actually invest quite a lot of capital expenditure in sorting out our air conditioning, because we’ve chosen to focus on a good night’s sleep. And it’s also very insight driven, because you know, you don’t go to Premier Inn to have a particularly luxurious, long-term experience. You go because it’s just before you’re going on a flight or just before you’re going to a meeting. So being able to understand your customer and focus on what they need. And also understand your organization bring it together to serve understanding your competition, your company, the context, and the consumer bringing all that together. That’s what makes any proposition unique in some ways. So yes, it doesn’t have to be something wild and wacky, it has to be something that’s relevant. And that’s probably most important. But also, if you can articulate it in language that people remember easily, that helps everybody inside the organization get behind it, and gives you that focus and that filter. The first part of your question, was’nt it?
Minter Dial 17:54
it was good. The second one was, can should every company or can every company have a purpose?
Sophie Devonshire 18:02
I’m always reluctant to have any statement in life, which imposes a “should” on people. I think if you’re ambitious, and you want an organization, which is going to be focused on, which is going to grow and develop, then finding a way to get to the truth of what will unite and inspire people is a really effective way to do that. And an artificially constructed purpose always feels exactly like that: corporate language, which doesn’t mean anything that sits on a mug or a wall and not in the hearts of people. That’s definitely not right. But very often there’s a founder’s vision, or there is a an insight about the customer that can be drawn into a purpose. And that creates a great story to bring everybody together. So overall, it’s always worth exploring: is there a North Star? Is there a focus for your organization that you can articulate, and then align everybody behind?
Minter Dial 19:03
So in listening to you, I certainly agree that it’s not about “should” and it needs to be felt to be authentic. So let’s stick with the Premier Inn one because I like the concreteness of it. I’ve always had this little idea that the really singular purposes are ones that you live. So that as an employee or the CEO of the company, it’s something that is you, that you bleed it. So in the case of having a good night’s sleep, the suggestion would be then that all employees of this company sleep well, or that there should be some sort of relevance back into us as human beings as employees of Premier, where we two are focused on living that dream, if you will. Your thoughts?
Sophie Devonshire 19:56
Yes, and I think that’s, that’s one of the big steps that organization now taking to move beyond focusing on communicating to their customers, but to getting that engagement internally, where they’re bringing the brand and the purpose to life inside the organization. And in a customer service organization, or any organization where you’ve got customer-facing people, it’s particularly important to have that. One of the things I like about the Premier Inn premise is that, of course, that’s inspiring for those people who are behind the counter, you know, doing check in, you know, they really think about how how people look and what might end, you know, and empathize how tired they are and to ask the right questions. And it’s the same if you think, you know, if you stay in that hotel group, if you think about Ritz Carlton: Ladies and Gentlemen, serving Ladies and gentlemen. You know, finding a way of helping people inside the organization feel good about the role they’re playing, helps translate purpose into a customer experience that everybody loves. And I think as you’re implying here, there’s also a greater awareness of people now that well-being, motivation, and getting your employees to really feel good about being part of all this is absolutely critical now.
Minter Dial 21:20
Well just imagine the employee who’s at the desk who had a crap night sleep, has bags under the eyes, feeling horrible. Are you tired? Yeah, me too! Anyway, but going to the Ritz example, which is interesting to me, as I’ve had a chance to hang out with them and work with them a little bit. When you’re in a luxury environment, one of the challenges is actually having ladies and gentlemen within, let’s say, because, generally speaking the shop assistant on the floor of a very high end luxury goods company, they can’t afford to wear what these other ladies and gentlemen who are walking in, can. And so there’s a challenge at some level, finding the way the aspiration — that is intended in the communication externally — to be bought in because if you want to be inside out, you obviously want to hire people who have a certain class and certain least distinction of some sort. But when it comes to shop assistant or retail, you don’t have the budget or and you won’t get ladies and gentlemen, to work as sales assistants.
Sophie Devonshire 22:29
I think it’s a really interesting area. And I’ve been lucky enough to work with a number of luxury brands. And I do think that thinking about service, not servility, as an approach, and getting people to understand what amazing customer service can be, is a challenge whatever type of business you have. I love Pret as an example, of course, and most people do. And actually one of the simplest things they’ve done within within Pret is to really make sure that they’ve got fantastic customer service. And most people know that the way in which they hire is to get the rest of the team to check out whoever’s interviewing for a role. But the story about the founder talking about how he hires people, is very simple. He says he hires happy people, because you can teach people how to make a coffee, but you can’t teach people how to be happy. So if we talk about finding the right people to play luxury customer service roles, there are some very basic points about finding people who have empathy. And those who are empathetic don’t have to be the same as the people they’re serving, they just have to look for how they can help, what they can do, and be inspired to be able to deliver that. Because otherwise you get, was in Pretty Woman, the moment when she’s in Beverly Hills, and she walks into the shop and has this snooty shop assistant. And that’s just hideous. You know, there are so many ways now in which we we can deliver incredible customer experiences for people. But we do need the right people, and the right people to have the right tools to be able to give service without having to be servile about it.
Minter Dial 24:15
Beautiful. So hire for attitude. So Sophie you’ve written a book now, Superfast, and I’m just going to share an experience that I had, and see what you think now as well. Because I wrote a book about empathy, specifically. And the research was fascinating the opportunity to write about it, interview people and then publish it. And then the issue is, oh my gosh, I’m now supposedly an expert. And presumably, I’m always empathic. So you end up having to hold yourself up to a standard that you’ve written about. And maybe Oh, gosh, at times, I’m not quite up to snuff. So I was wondering, in the experience you had of writing this book, to what extent it’s a blueprint, that you’ve led, a blueprint that you would like to lead and/or where you’ve had gaps, and your experience, because it’s one thing to write it, it’s another thing to live it?
Sophie Devonshire 25:14
It’s a great question. Well, that’s why it was so enjoyable writing the book, because it does provide a framework, which hopefully helps other people, but frankly, selfishly helps me. Within the book, the idea is that there are smart ways to structure so that you can be as a leader, and as an organization, more responsive, so set up to be able to take the opportunities that are out there, but also more responsible. So human understanding, behaving in a way, which isn’t just about pace, but is with grace, finding ways to get the pace, right as well, to think slowly and to move fast. So absolutely, I am determined to practice what I preach as much as possible. And, of course, the problem with having a book called Superfast is, you know, if you are particularly tardy and responding to something or the book takes longer than you want to write, that puts an extra pressure on it all. But here’s the other thing in terms of researching it. And the conversations I’m having with leaders all types of moment is that we do now operate in a world where people are much more comfortable with imperfection, that they’re interested in people sharing how hard it is to get everything right. And that if we want to move forward, a lot of what we have to do is accept that 80% is often good enough. You talk about Michelle Obama, incredible book, you know, one of the best books I’ve read recently, both in terms of understanding her and thinking about life overall. And she says, and I won’t be out remember the exact quote, but there’s something she says that is brilliant about the moment when she decided to stop caring what other people thought of her. So there will always be people who don’t like what you do, who will criticize you, who will have a different point of view to to your and there are so many people who limit what they do and limit themselves by having a vicious troll in their own head, which represents those people. So accepting that you will always screw up and you won’t be perfect, but at least if you’re moving in the right direction, that you can feel good about it, is actually maybe one of the messages. The book is one of the messages from Michelle Obama who achieved amazing things, and was very open about sharing it. So I guess I’m very happy to be open about my imperfections. But I’m trying, Minter. I’m trying.
Minter Dial 27:52
Do you think, Sophie, and this is going to be the last area that there is a difference between how women and men lead? Or is this some sort of fiction? And what can we learn from our differences?
Sophie Devonshire 28:06
Oh, this is a fascinating one, we could be here for hours on this. I spoke about Superfast at an event recently, and one of the questions from the audience was to say, I talked about, you know, this 21st century type of leader who needs to lead in a very different way. And someone from the audience said: So, is this type of person, more likely to be a woman? And doesn’t that mean we need more women on the boards and running businesses? And the arch feminist in me wants to say yes, yes, you’re absolutely right, we must, because I do think there is something that urgently needs to be done. We’ve been talking about this for a number of years. But the fact that things are changing so fast in business, but not in terms of gender diversity at a senior level, something has to be done. But do I believe that women are better at it than men? Do I believe there is this major difference? I think most of the differences I see are societal, part of, you know, decades, centuries of how men and women are taught that they should be thinking of themselves and behaving differently. It’s not about innate ability. And so I think when I talk about the type of leader that I think we need in society, right now, that’s a leader who is human, that’s a leader who understands that people are integral to business, to society, and dealing with heart and conscience. That’s what’s important. And that is both genders. And it’s just trying to find a way for us to reconnect with a human, not just about women being more naturally able to do it.
Minter Dial 29:48
And I think that there is a genetic difference that somehow has been encoded over the years, over the centuries. And makes the societal element, social element, the listening element, including the relationship with the body, that has a distinct difference. And, and so it’s not that men are better or worse is that we are somehow encoded differently. And so I think there’s a lot that men can be learning from women and vice versa. It’s not then about becoming, you know, more female, it’s just about somehow onboarding some of these aspects, of better listening more, possibly more empathy, as far as men are concerned. Just one last part, at Caffeine, you talk about being fast forward, female. And so I was just interested to know a little bit more about that?
Sophie Devonshire 30:47
Well, I think part of this is, how do we make sure we get this, this redressing of the balance. So what’s happening at the moment, I think, is that there is a this real focus on know, people understanding that diversity is important; that we mustn’t have all-male panels, that we cannot be what we cannot see in getting that balance. And some of that is about getting the numbers right. But I think there is also a little bit of an element of where we see great potential leaders, making sure they have the support to get them where they need to. So within Caffeine, we help a number of female leaders as part of our work with executive teams. And some of that is purely about making sure that those women understand how they’re communicating and how to sharpen the way in which they’re doing that. So there, it’s a terrible phrase, but their personal brand, how they’re seeing it, what their speed bumps and blockers are. And so often for all of us, they’re in our own head. But they’re also about practicing certain ways of communicating. And it’s never about not being authentic, it’s more about showing your best face, about finding ways to to accelerate where you want to go. So it’s really just about exploring what leadership means for individuals and giving people the right boost to get them there — a bit of a shot of caffeine,
Minter Dial 32:14
The word that comes to my mind is bravado. And I feel it’s a very different expression for women than men. So the typical example is there’s this job. Hey listen, has anyone done x? And the men in the room all shoot up their hand. Yeah, I can do that. Of course, that wasn’t the question. But I can do that. So I have the bravado to imagine that I have done it, with no experience, and I can do it. A woman or the women in this room, they won’t raise their hand, yet they’ve all done it three or four times and don’t feel that they’re yet accomplished enough to be able to perform the requested action. Is that something you’ve seen? And when you talk about the boost? Is that where we want to see more boost?
Sophie Devonshire 32:59
That’s exactly it and we see it time and time again. And what I want to make sure that we’re doing and then more and more people are doing is taking those people who are incredibly qualified, who can contribute so much, and making sure they have the confidence and the bravado, the ability to just say, Yes, I can do it. And sometimes you just need people to believe in you or to coach you or to help you through that and say, why not? Why? What’s stopping you? And I think that one of the positive things about the world in which we live right now is that men and women are supporting women now to do that. And there is a sense of urgency that we need to make sure that’s possible and that change will happen. Because it helps all organizations help society overall we have to do something about it.
Minter Dial 33:47
Beautiful. Sophie Devinshire thanks so much for coming on the show. Tell us how we can get Superfast, Lead at speed and/or get in touch with you. Get and understand more about Caffeine.
Sophie Devonshire 33:59
Thank you. Well, Superfast is available or good book shops and on Amazon, in hardback and on audio version. I’d love to know what you think about it. Come and find me on LinkedIn. Or I’m on Instagram as Ms_speeds or Twitter, which I love S_ Devonshire. And you can find out more about the Caffeine Partnership and what we do at this at caffeine.com
Minter Dial 34:27
This is minter.aurevoir. Thanks, Sophie.
Sophie Devonshire 34:31
Thank you very much.
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