Minter Dialogue with Shama Hyder

Shama Hyder, CEO of, is a two-time best-selling author, keynote speaker, media correspondent for Forbes and Inc. and who’s been rated four times as LinkedIn’s Top Voice in Marketing. In this conversation with Shama, you’ll learn about how to optimise your digital marketing approach and resources, how to allow for your personality as an executive, how best to drive your brand’s share of voice and how to navigate political issues.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

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Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

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Transcription via Descript

Shama Hyder episode on Minter Dialogue

Minter Dial: [00:00:00] So, Shama Hyder, how wonderful to have you on the show. You have really set a path and I come across you regularly and I really said, I need to have Shama on my show. You you’ve really mastered the art of having a beautiful and powerful, influential presence online. In your own words, how do you like to describe yourself?

Shama Hyder: [00:00:22] Well, first of all, thank you so much for the kind words and for the invitation to be here and share a little bit of the journey, I suppose. You know, when I think about what I do, I feel like the, the words that come to mind are I wear a lot of hats. Okay. And so, a big chunk of my life in my past was professionally defined. I find that it now blends more and more with the personal as well. So, you know, I wear personal hats like mum and wife and daughter, and you know, these, these are hats I greatly enjoy. And then there’s a myriad of professional hats, which include, you know, founder and CEO’s and media marketing and PR firm, author I love writing, keynote speaker, which of course in pandemic days everything’s gone remote. And they do a lot of stuff for the media. It’s funny, I walked that line as a media correspondent, too. So, you know, I feel like I, everything that I do though, the overarching themes tends to be, you know, helping people in an organization succeed in the digital age. And I would say that’s, that’s the umbrella where everything sort of falls. 

Minter Dial: [00:01:34] So, lots of things in there, Shama, and I want to pick off the first thing, which is so important to me and certainly something I’ve been writing about and talking about a lot, which is merging the personal with the professional. To what extent do you think that’s part of your success?

Shama Hyder: [00:01:53] Well, I think as a woman, it’s definitely a huge part of you. You know, I be, I thought I was a good productive multi-tasker and I don’t mean multitaskers doing. No four things at once, but the ability to get a lot done in a given day, you know, and I thought this before I became a mom, and then I realized, boy, I really had no idea how much I wasn’t living up to my potential because then all of a sudden you’re like, okay, really?

I could get those 10 things done within half the time. Right. Because that’s all I have a lot at now. So I do think it, you discover quite a bit about yourself and in that regard,

Minter Dial: [00:02:34] And what about your public personality to the extent that there’s personal in personality, to what extent do you feel that you are a complete Shama Hyder online as opposed to a professional CEO, seller, author , you know…?

Shama Hyder: [00:02:55] Yeah. So you know that that’s aligned that it’s a great question. I try to balance that very strategically and consciously, both through a perspective of what does my audience want to know, right?  When someone follows me on Twitter or connects with me on LinkedIn, I mean, what’s, you know, what’s my expertise, what are they, what are they looking for? And then of course, that is, you know, it is business. It is marketing. I guess there is some level of interest in my personal life, if you just look at Google searches. But I tend to think a lot about that in terms of, you know, how do I balance how much I put out there about personal life and, you know, being a mom and you know, how pictures of my son, even pictures of my family.

And I try to balance that with what do people want? You know, what are they curious about with. Being respectful, of course, of my family; being respectful of people who did not necessarily sign up for a public persona or life. And I think about what do I want to stand for? As in, I often tell, you know, I often tell my team this and, and my husband as well. It’s much harder to be what you can’t see. So we feel like every time I do share. Being a mom be having a family, you know, being a woman of color, being young. Every time I do highlight, highlight those things. I feel like someone out there can look at that and say, Oh my God, me too. I didn’t know this was possible.

Right? Growing up, I never saw anyone like me run a company. I never really saw anyone looked like me on TV. That wasn’t. You know, playing a Kardashian or was it no, you just don’t don’t see that. And so I feel a certain level of responsibility to a global audience, you know, many who I’ve never met to be able to be that.

And occasionally I’ll get that email on Instagram from. You know, a 19 year old young lady who says, Oh my God, I love your stuff with following I’m so, so thrilled to have discovered this. And I really want this as a career or, you know, I really look up to you and, and I, I enjoy that because, not from a place of like an ego perspective, it’s nice.

Right? But more from a place that I feel like yes what I’m doing is working because part of my goal is to inspire. It is to have people look and say, okay, “Wow. If she can do that, I can do that.”

Minter Dial: [00:05:20] I’ve observed that type of a trait of allowing for the personal sphere in the professional to be a much more engaging and naturally more authentic to the extent that you allow at least a portion of it into the public sphere.

Obviously we’re not talking about dirty laundry, but up to that point. And so my question then becomes when you’re working with your clients at Zen Media, what is your line with regard to that? And I want to get it and the particular topic of allowing personal opinions about politics, for example.

Shama Hyder: [00:05:59] Yeah. You know, it’s funny. I give them much of the same advice as I follow myself, which is: look at your audience, how many people’s audiences really? And this is again, differs based on who you serve. At Zen Media, our clients are so diverse. I mean, we have clients all over the political spectrum. And I try to remind them that they have customers all over the political spectrum. I think it is a fine line, especially with everything happening in the US right now, where you know, where I do think for brands, while taking a stance as important, not alienating, you know, your audience is also important. We think, you know, it takes of course in the world of communications and PR it takes a certain level of finesse. It takes a certain level of savvy to sort of navigate these waters.

Minter Dial: [00:06:49] I so agree. And I think that the issue becomes whether you’re prepared to stand for something or feel that you need to water down everything to please everybody.

Shama Hyder: [00:07:03] Yeah. And you know, again, so much of it depends on your audience. What you’re trying to do, your leadership. I mean, some clients are naturally more comfortable. You know, the leadership is more comfortable taking a stance than others. And I feel like my job and our job is as an agency and professionals is to help navigate that based on their constraints and help encourage where it makes sense to stretch a little bit, but again, be very respectful of what it is that they, they believe in and what their stance is. I think if you can’t tell people how to feel or what to, what to think. I think you could just use that and you know, you look at the end goal, right? When people come to us, it’s usually because they want more leads sales, they want to increase share a voice. And so these are the kinds of challenges we solve. We look at this as part of the bigger picture, not necessarily as a standalone.

Minter Dial: [00:08:00] And when you have those conversations Shama. Because I mean, obviously I have similar types of conversations, but I don’t, I certainly don’t get into the nitty gritties of digital marketing. I tend to sort of want to push in on things like what is their overall strategy? And I just wonder to what extent when someone says, Hey, listen, Shama, I need this campaign. I need to break through. I need to have a huge following, whatever that the issues that one typically has, right? Well, you say, well, I bring my personality into the flavor and that’s how I’ve got to where I’ve got to. The conversation, the pushback, the challenge with corporate organizations is ” I’m just a stiff, I’m a person running a company. I’m the CEO. I’m not the individual behind the CEO. I don’t want that part out of me.” And as a company, as a brand so often, well,  they kind of put up a wall that doesn’t allow them to express what others might consider to be more authentic, more accessible.

Shama Hyder: [00:08:58] Yeah. It’s such a fine line. And what I find is most important is to focus on the value that you give your audience, right? The thing is everyone has a brand today. The only question is, is it by default or by design? So even if the CEO feels like, Oh, I don’t really like engaging well, but that is your brand. People know that. People know that you aren’t in the limelight or you are in that need, you know, in some ways you give up a share of voice to that to some degree, but that’s not to say that you still can’t have a valuable online presence for your company or even yourself, depending on how strategic you get. And, you know, for example, use of influencers, right? Very powerful. There’s still many brands that, that leveraged. I mean, I’ve been again on both sides where we’ve engaged influencers for clients, both B to C and B to B. sometimes in B2B it can be even more powerful than B2C. And, and I’ve been an influencer. I’ve done influencer engagements with Microsoft and Verizon where they say, you have this audience, can, you know, can you curate this? Can you create this content? And then we will distribute it. So there’s lots of ways to provide, but I think it comes down to, this is what is your audience find valuable? You know, they, your audience may not care about seeing, you know, the CEO would feeding their four kids breakfast at the table and you have me now. I have no interest in sharing that. No problem. Yeah. What do they care about? So I do think again, sometimes there’s this misconception that everything needs to be out on, you know, out in the open, everything needs to be public. And if you’re not being completely real, you’re missing out. I think quite the contrary, you know, not that authenticity doesn’t play a role, but it’s what is of interest, right? To that audience. So just your audience listening right now is tuning in for a specific, certain, you know, layer of my life or my expertise.

They’re not interested in the whole life story. So just like my audience, yes, I could tweet, you know, what I do every day and what it takes to balance a family and business and so forth. But, and that might be about five, 10% of what I share, but the majority of what I share is how do you, you know, how do you gain by reality?

How do you manufacture these moments or take advantage of these moments that are given to you? How do you, you know, how do you get visibility and attract attention. How do you grow your brand? I would say 90% of my content stays in that realm. People like to also have a sense of what they can expect and they’d like to see that then fulfilled. Yeah. There’s a lot of people I follow where I don’t really care about their personal lives. I don’t say that in a mean way. I say that in a very genuine. I’m more interested in what they’re doing professionally than personally. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Minter Dial: [00:11:37] Yeah. You see the value in just that you don’t need more.

Shama Hyder: [00:11:41] Absolutely

Minter Dial: [00:11:43] My thought though, goes to the types of sensitive topics that you mentioned before when we were talking at the beginning about what you stand for. And at some level, if you don’t say something, the silence can be taking as acquiescence for the other side, if you will, in this politically charged environment. And, and I’m wondering how you guide your clients on that topic.

Shama Hyder: [00:12:11] You know, I think you have to, you have to be very sensitive to, to the, again, to both the audience and the leadership, and everyone’s got a different level. I do believe it’s important to stand for something. I don’t think it’s as important to be as provocative.

As people seem to think, right? So this the sense of, well, if you’re not taking even the strongest, it’s that, you know, your actions speak louder or in your words. We have clients right now, for example, that have been, he knew that, that hadn’t been. talking as much about diversity. And the reason is because if you look at their portfolios and their boards and stuff, they’re already very diverse. It’s not, you know, it’s not be been walking the talk. We have programs to support others. You know, if they don’t feel compelled to put out a statement because they feel like isn’t this understood we’re in, you know, 2020. Our board is half women. There are plenty of people of color. We have a great system in place to. So I think part of this is also, you know, again, being true to your, your, your roots and, Actions speaking louder than words. I think that is true authenticity. so, you know, being able to then of course navigate those things and being honest and up front and upright, but I don’t think that there’s necessarily this need to jump on every, you know, we call it virtue signaling, right?

There’s no need for virtue signaling to say, Oh yeah, we’re on board. I mean, it’s enough to be able to limit and to consistently live it and share it. So this is the other thing is when you come out and you say, Oh yes, you saw this with so many companies; Pinterest, for example, when they came out and said, Oh yes, black lives matter. And you know, we, we care about our, you know, our, our employees that are minorities that are, that are black. We support that and they had employees who came out and said that, that wasn’t my experience at all, right? They felt very, that they did that they had been bullied and they didn’t feel, and so then you have a case where it’s really, boy, you know, you don’t want to go preaching something that you weren’t really doing to begin with.

And I say this about marketing as well. You know, it amplifies what exists if you hear my little guy. Yeah. You know, and amplifies what exists. If you have a good product and you have great marketing, it will be perceived as a great product by the marketplace. If you have something that’s average or poor, all the marketing in the world will just amplify those defects.

Minter Dial: [00:14:42] I enjoyed your book. It’s called “Momentum, how to propel your marketing and transform your brand in the digital age.” And several elements jumped out at me. And, and in speaking on this particular topic, this rabbit hole, if you will, you, you were fair to your hypothesis about what was social media or specifically with your thesis on Twitter. And you write, I quote, “my incorrect hypothesis was that people wanted to connect to each other. But my research revealed that this was only the secondary reason. The primary reason was to showcase their own identity.” So when you’re discussing with a brand , the notion of showing your identity, because I’m a brand guy, I’m thinking, you know, I got a great product, of course, I’ve got a great campaign.

Look, you know, I used to work for L’Oreal with lovely , made-up, not to say retouched girls selling beautiful hair or whatever it is, this is a, an identity, but it’s certainly not necessarily a real identity; or certainly can appear to be superficial for others. How do you get into the nitty gritty and what kind of advice do you provide to companies to expose a more interesting identity? One that allows for a higher level of engagement, a more robust, believable presence online?

Shama Hyder: [00:16:04] I think it stems from — a great question — I think it stems from a deeper understanding of your audience, not what you think, but what the audience actually wants. Right. for example, I was working with, I was talking to a company right here that does, these snacks, right? Like a certain type of vegetable chip, healthy vegetable chips, not potato. So they, they do these green chips. And the point was that they were looking at these chips and saying, you know. They can appeal to so many people, they can appeal to vegans. They can apply to parents who want healthy snacks for the kids. They can appeal to, you know, the diabetic community because they’re, they’re sugar free and it’s like, yes, they can appeal to all these. And who’s the core audience, like who can we go after first? Right. Would that creates the tipping point for, for everything else? So we think that. It’s funny because you know, you’re a branding guy, so you’ll understand this. The brand used to be all about what do we see about our, what do we see about ours now? What, what does our brand stand for? And the question you really should be asking is: what is doing business with us allow our customers to say about their brand, right? When you shop with Apple, it says something. When you shop at certain, you know, when you, You know, when you are a patron of your local cupcake grill or your local restaurant and you support that, it says something. So, I mean, it really does come down to that. What does, what does doing business with you allow your customers to say about themselves or, you know, one of the brands we work with is Galia Lahav. They do these gorgeous bridal gowns. And I wore it myself for my wedding. And you know, when, when people wear that celebs wear that, it’s a very pop, you know, it’s, it’s a high-end couture line and it’s not just about the dress. It is about the brand. It is about Ooh. You know that dress, like you said, you were with L’Oreal, right. So when people shop certain brands more and more brands need to think about, well, what is it? What is it about the consumer identity that really clicks here?

Minter Dial: [00:18:05] And you said this need for data. Just those one more piece of this, which I just wanted to share, which is I was sad and that it’s not about connecting with one another cause I feel that on a meta level, Shama. That the world is missing connection and that the ability for conversation and connection, and I’m not talking because of a lockdown pandemic, much more endemically in our society, an issue is we are losing conversation and going into silos and not being able to converse and connect it with a more broad audience. So that was, that was why I really tagged into that particular piece.

Shama Hyder: [00:18:46] Yeah.

Minter Dial: [00:18:47] Yeah, I’m going to comment that if you wish.

Shama Hyder: [00:18:49] No, no, I, I think I, you know, I absolutely, and I think it’s all about that balance between what, what you’re trying to achieve and then what is going to resonate with your audience. And that’s going to look a little bit different for every brand.

Minter Dial: [00:19:03] In order to get this data from your audience. So we’ve established that you really need to know your audience. What are they looking for? You need to have data and, and you, of course, you talk a lot about trust and the importance of having that data, but the issue somehow is gaining that trust to get the good data. The one that says, Oh, click here, click here. If you’re willing to share your data, click here. If you’re willing to get personalized. And, and how do you articulate or you help companies gain more trust with their audience?

Shama Hyder: [00:19:39] Trust is gained through multiple small things. People think trust is gained through sort of these big grand gestures, but really the brands that are very trusted are the brands that are built trust with small little things over time. And you even look at Amazon. Right. In some ways there’s a lot of mistrust around that brand and you’d consumers continue to flock there because they feel safe.

Right. They feel like, Hey, if something doesn’t work out, I can return it. Yeah. I, you know, even though their customer services is top notch, so to speak, but they feel like, you know, it’s, it’s that perception. So I think that’s really interesting too, is, is trust. Isn’t just the reality. It’s the perception. And I think so many brands sometimes. Do all these things. I talk to brands all the time that say, yeah, we’ve been doing business for 30, 40 years. You know, our products are better than our competitors are. You know, we’re the best yet. Our competitor gets, you know, the business linen. And I said, you know what? It doesn’t matter. Who’s the best. It only matters who’s perceived as the best. And it’s very important that even when you’re doing things that are building trust, that you showcase; that, that you share with your customers, how they’re, you know, how you’re keeping their data safe, how you’re, and then you follow through on that. And I think sometimes that means apologizing and saying, Hey, listen, you know, we messed up. We apologize. Here’s how we’re going to fix it. Brands don’t trust me, you know, consumers don’t trust perfection. It seems it’s not something we buy. We don’t feel like that exists. Especially when you look at millennials and gen Z. I think what you do see is people respect the ability to take responsibility, the ability to say, I’m sorry, the ability to be able to, to fix the mistake, to rectify something. I think these are the things you get really judged on.

Minter Dial: [00:21:32] Actions in another quote in your book, Shama that just, Oh God, I had myself rolling and maybe worrying. You wrote, I quote, what does digital marketing mean to you? Posting on Facebook and Twitter a few times a week. Emailing list of subscribers, cranking out blog posts every few days, tweaking your website to make it mobile responsive. My God, each one of these, I was like, yup, yup, yup. And it doesn’t have to be that way. How would you frame the strategic approach to digital marketing? So you don’t have to get caught down this rabbit hole or, or this hamster race?

Shama Hyder: [00:22:12] Yeah, well, where is simply, it starts with keeping the big picture in mind, right? And then realizing there’s multiple ways to reach that same goal. I mean, look at what’s happening right now with trade shows, especially in the U S where you see, where you see so many, companies that used to go to trade shows regularly. Right? And they used to attend trade shows that have they been canceled in the U.S. But also in many have experienced sort of the global, global cancellations and so forth.

And when, you know, I’ve talked to many of these companies, they say, Oh, no, Shama, our trade show has been canceled. What are we going to do? And I say, okay, well, what, what was the goal of the trade show? Like what I’m trying to achieve there anyways. And then they say, well, I. I don’t know we’ve been doing it for years and it’s like, okay, but what was the goal? And I think so often, you lose sight of that, you know, like, Oh, I’ve been sending a newsletter out every, every week for what? What’s the goal, right? Well, I’ve been, Oh, you know, we’ve been, even we do social media. What ,for what. So I think it’s so, and I think that’s the pandemic in so many ways has given people and brands the opportunity to pause and say, why are we doing this great opportunity for brands by the way, because we’ve never seen people switch brands like we have now. I mean,if there was ever a chance to steal market share from a competitor, it’s hands down now because people are reassessing things they’ve never reassessed. Look at Starbucks that said, you know, we’re going to close down what 1200 stores and just stick to drive through. And they said, because they see that, you know, they see the proof in the pudding. They see that, you know, customers stop and go get my Starbucks. Like I’m happy with my coffee at home or I’m happy, you know, switching the habit finally for just tea, whatever it is. And so, it’s very rare to have these sort of moments in time where you have so many people rethinking the things they think about, and a great time for brands also to rethink about these marketing activities that they might engage in sometimes meaninglessly, or, you know, at best haphazardly. So they do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, but there’s no strategy. There’s no cohesion. There’s nothing, you know, there, there is nothing that ties it all together.

Minter Dial: [00:24:37] Yeah, back to the big question of strategy. One of the things you mentioned in the book of course, is the shift in event marketing as well. So not just conferences and the trade shows like South by Southwest, and so that, but, event marketing is so changed. And so switching quickly and easily, if you will, to digital. Although it’s certainly not the same and it takes a different skillset in order to accomplish it. So you do need to check in on who you have in your team. What expertise is you need to bring in? Correct?

Shama Hyder: [00:25:08] Absolutely. And I think it’s something you need to do on a regular basis. And that’s the thing. Most people get stuck in their status quo and they don’t, you know, they, they don’t look at all the missed opportunities and sometimes it’s given to you, you know, we sometimes you kind of land into it. Sometimes that moment that we call it is external. You know, it may be that you got caught in. You jujitsu your way into making it positive.

Minter Dial: [00:25:34] You okay?

Shama Hyder: [00:25:36] Yes, I am okay if you count that I am being harassed by a giant puppy. And, when I say giant, when I say giant, I mean giant, we have a giant schnauzer puppy, so he’s, he’s a, he’s a hundred pounds and four months old. Yes. Yes. It’s a very, very big puppy.

Minter Dial: [00:25:58] I want to get into one last area, Shama, which is more let’s say strategic thinking about the different social media. Obviously you have a very strong presence online and I’m specifically mostly following you on Twitter. But you’re not just on Twitter, of course, but, what your thoughts with regard to their results at the end of June 2nd quarter, they had revenues down nearly 20% and, and monetizeable users up 34%. How does that, that change things or what’s your reading of that type of a result?

Shama Hyder: [00:26:34] It’s interesting, even with Facebook, you see a lot of big brands and this happens whenever there’s something challenging when you find is big brands. And I, and I hope we’ve learned from this and during the last great recession that we had in the U S big brands often pull back, they get scared.

They, you know, it’s all of a sudden it becomes about maintaining market share and not realizing that there is no maintaining. You’re either only winning or losing it. By the minute, what you find is small businesses, medium enterprises are getting more creative. They look at a challenge and they say, all right, let’s, let’s do it. When I mentioned, when I started social media, like my, my world, you know, my, my career, my profession, people didn’t know what Twitter was. They didn’t know what social media was. It was completely brand new. My first clients were small, medium-sized businesses, businesses that said, if this gets customers in the door, we’ll try it.

But huge companies, huge corporations didn’t didn’t even know they felt like it was a fad. They didn’t, it was just like the internet was supposed to be a fad.

Minter Dial: [00:27:38] And of course they, a lot of other things have been going on in terms of people not wishing to use Facebook for other ethical reasons.

Shama Hyder: [00:27:47] Yes, but you have to realize that, you know, three-fourths if Facebook advertisers are small, medium=sized businesses because there’s such great ROI in Facebook advertising. They can’t compete with the big guys for television ads. So even though you’ve got people who are pulling from advertising, it’s not the end of the world because people don’t realize that the majority of the advertisers are not enterprise companies.

Minter Dial: [00:28:07] Or presumably the prices have gone rocketing down if …

Shama Hyder: [00:28:11] Yeah, but even, even generally, most of the advertisers for Facebook have been small, medium sized businesses. That’s where they make the majority of their revenue. And I apologize if the audience can, you can hear the hacking sound in the back. I should have mentioned my puppy has pneumonia, which is why he’s being allowed to be a little brat.

Minter Dial: [00:28:30] That’s so cute,  but last question, just with regard to social media, in terms of targeting and personalization, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, part of Facebook, which of these, I mean, obviously it depends where your audience is, but do you feel like one of them’s got the game down pat, and the others are still playing catch-up or it’s, they’re all much of a muchness and you just need to know where your audience is?

Shama Hyder: [00:28:55] You need to know where your audience is. I will say I’m quite impressed by LinkedIn over the years, especially in these last two years, because I feel like they’ve done such a great job evolving, you know, and I, I long predicted, and I guess I’ll lead the audience with this prediction. I do believe with all these disruptions — and I’ve said this, even before, I’ve been making this prediction for five years now — I believe LinkedIn will offer their own university. I know they have courses, but I believe LinkedIn has the power to compete with Harvard and Yale. And. And Cambridge and Oxford, and UT Austin. Sure. You know, when they’ll compete with these by offering, because they’ll have a hundred percent placement rate. So it’s very easy for them to work with the companies that are already. You know, advertising for jobs there, work with them to create a curriculum that gets them the perfect fit. When someone graduates with the exact skillset you need for them to have in that job, right? And that’s going to be very attractive to a new breed of students.

Minter Dial: [00:29:50] Indeed. Shama. Brilliant. Well, so, and the name of your schnauzer there, how was it?

Shama Hyder: [00:29:56] Georgie!

Minter Dial: [00:29:57] Well, hi to Georgie. How can people follow you? Connect, obviously get your books. What’s the best way?

Shama Hyder: [00:30:06] is where all our information can be found. And of course, you know, pick your poison. If you just google my name, you’ll find all the different social platforms that I’m on and more than happy to connect. And if you see you, you know, you heard me on this podcast and that will put you top of the list.

Minter Dial: [00:30:24] Shama, thanks so much for coming on the show. I look forward to staying in touch with you. Congratulations on the fourth edition of your Zen Media book and continuing to roll. It’s been a pleasure and good luck with everything.

Shama Hyder: [00:30:36] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

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