Minter Dialogue with Ben Nichols

Ben Nichols, a communications expert and padel enthusiast, shares insights from his diverse career, including his time at the World Anti-Doping Agency. He discusses the challenges of managing communications in sports, particularly in emerging markets like padel. Ben explores the importance of authenticity in personal branding for athletes and the evolving landscape of PR in the digital age. He also delves into his various padel-related ventures, including Padel22, a PR and marketing communications business, and Insider22, a membership community for the padel industry. The conversation highlights the exciting growth of padel and Ben’s mission to increase its profile globally.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Ben Nichols:

• Find/follow Ben Nichols on LinkedIn
• On Instagram: @thepadelpr and @padel22global 

Other mentions/sites:

• Padel 22 – Ben’s main business, this a leading PR and Marketing Consultancy on a mission to elevate the sport’s profile across the New Padel World.
• Cage 91 Co – A padel multimedia storytelling company, focussed on the business side of padel.  
• Anglo American Cup – Following in the footsteps of what the America’s Cup, Ryder Cup and Davis Cup once were (GB v USA), but for Padel! The Anglo American Cup is the latest instalment of this most storied of sporting transatlantic rivalries, Great Britain vs United States of America. From 10 – 11 October 2025 at Rocket Padel London.
• Club Águilas – known as ‘Padel’s answer to the Michelin Guide’ – Club Águilas is the world’s first carefully curated selection of elite resorts and clubs from across the established and emerging padel nations. 
• Property+Padel – The world’s leading business networking platform that connects decision-makers across real estate, finance and Padel. 

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes.
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Ben Nichols, great to have you on the show. You and I have of course met much over padel. We even had the chance to share a beer down in Madrid at the Hexagon Cup. But as I like to start my podcast, who is Ben Nichols?

Ben Nichols: Good morning. Hi Minter. Good to, good to see you and thank you firstly for having me on. Who’s Ben Nichols? I, I like to think people are not necessarily symmetrically kind of put in, put in a box. And I think my career from a, from a business point of view, I’ve had, I like to think an interesting career and quite, quite diverse in terms of the experiences. So, I’d like to think I’m not a one trick pony, as we say in the UK, and fairly agile individual. I am. Who am I? I am a, a positive, fairly outgoing individual that likes to see the, the glass half full with kind of personal life and professional life. Likes to try and see the best in people and likes to get along with people and, and try and try and make the best out of this life that we have through the kind of unexpected twists and turns. So, I would, I’d say I’m quite a philosophical person as well. And yeah, try not to, try not to complain and grumble too much about life. It’s challenging for everyone to different degrees and at different times, but we, it’s what you make of these situations in, in life, again, you’re kind of away from the desk and, and at the desk, So, that’s kind of a mentality.

Minter Dial: So, you said philosophical. Do you have any specific types of philosophies or is it more like, you know, glass half full optimism?

Ben Nichols: No, I realise I’ve set myself up for that question. No, no, none. On the theoretical side, I suppose I’m, yeah, more, more kind. Yeah, the glass half full, which is the cliche, but yeah, just sort of having an outlook on life and having perspective as we all like to be able to have. But you know, there are times when you lose that perspective and you get in the weeds on things. But I like to think I’m able to step back, see the big picture, use the experiences I’ve had living and working in different countries to always realise things are not as bad as they seem. Things are. When you take the bird’s eye view of things, I think you can quickly realise that actually life is pretty good and, and there’s always a way out of things, around things, through things and a way to, you know, wake up the next day with a fresh, fresh slate. So, yeah, I think just having that view on life, no matter how hard things get or how much you. You get tunnel vision with things as well, it’s always about stepping back and looking from an outsider’s point of view.

Minter Dial: Wherever possible, taking perspective. A lovely thing to have. You were talking about multiple activities and skills and industries and things you’ve done. I typically refer to that as the comb, where, as opposed to the T, The T has one singular strong suit, you know, like an expert in biochemistry in that typical field within biochemistry. And then you have the pie shape, where you have two branches and you have two strengths. But you and I are more like the comb, where we have lots of little teeth in our comb, all representing different things we’ve done in our lives. And hopefully the comb as a whole will get our hair straight all the same.

Ben Nichols: Yes, exactly. I like that way of thinking. I think I. I definitely take the outlook on life that I’ve always been someone that. Well, I think, look, increasingly I’ve become someone that likes a challenge almost the extent of testing myself. When there’s an easy, easy path to maybe just having a 9 to 5 job or taking an easy path. I sort of want to test myself and want to prove I can do things. I wouldn’t say I’ve always had that as a. As a youngster, but I think having in the working world, when I became an adult, having challenges of not being in the right jobs or getting made redundant or not getting jobs, I think I, you know, probably should have got, and feeling a bit, you know, at the time, hard, kind of resentful or hard done by. Actually. I’ve always sort of, I think, been quite tenacious and thought, actually, there’ll be another door that opens if, If I find it and, you know, if I take examples of, you know, going into the World Anti Doping Agency, which we might. Might speak to, you know, I had no background in medicine, science, law, all the different elements that. That the. The Global Anti Doping Agency had experts in, but I had a background in sports and I had a background in media relations, and I had to learn hard and. And fast about, you know, the technical world of anti doping. But I took on that role because I had an opportunity. And the easy route would have been, I’m not ready for this, but you’re given an opportunity. And I thought, you know, it’s. It’s within my capability to find a way to get up to speed and prove myself and prove that to others I can do a job. So, I think that was, you know, that job in particular, I was able to find resilience. And it was a very tough role during a period of time which was the Russian doping scandal, So, fraught with all sorts of complexities. And it was. I was able to. Yeah. Learn a lot myself and, and, and find inner strength to. To do a really tough job. So, that reason I mentioned that, that, that kind of, I feel, shaped me professionally and personally to. To take on challenges and to. To prove you’re at your best when you’re outside your comfort zone. And that’s something. Even with padel. You know, setting up my own padel company, that’s something. It’s. It’s not. Some people say, wow, you know, good for you, as in, why I wouldn’t do that. But. But I have, and I, you know, I, I run with it.

Minter Dial: So, it makes me think of the tension between imposter syndrome and bravado.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: Bravado being. Yeah, I can do that. I’ve never done it before, but I can do it.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And imposter syndrome. I’ve done it 15 times, but I still don’t think I’m good enough for it.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: You know, how do you, how do you manage that disequilibrium or tension?

Ben Nichols: It’s a good point, I think. I’d like to think imposter syndrome lessens over the years because you’ve proven yourself more and more. There’s more proof points, let’s say, to. That you can do things which are outside that comfort zone, but there’ll always be things you’re uncomfortable with. So, you know, I think it’s. Maybe it builds more confidence that you can encounter things which are not in your lane. Yeah. Perhaps there is a slight imbalance there. Yeah. A little bit of bravado. And I definitely think I sort of have taken from my parents, as we all do, that kind of skill set of, yes, you can do it and go on. Better to give it an effort and try and try and succeed than not to have a go. But at the same time, yes, there’s that fear of, am I going to be going a step too far with this? You know, we’re only human. Can we take on more projects, more difficult challenges? Yeah, more, more, More learnings. But I think there’s a. You don’t want to always stretch yourself. You want to, you know, you need to be working within your kind of your, Your, your, you know, what’s reasonable. But I think actually I do enjoy that challenge and, and not getting too comfortable because I think it just. It kind of. Yeah, it builds resilience and builds Builds strength and builds. Helps that confidence. And I’ve always been someone to want to build confidence through, through actions. And I think that’s something I. I thrive on. And I’ve proven to myself, I say this with. With as much humility as I can have proven to myself to be able to do things which, of course, I had doubts at the beginning could I do that? And then you, you know, I’ll give you one example, Minty. You know, when I went to the World Anti Doping Agency, I got that role aged, I want to say aged. What was I, 29, 30? And I thought, am I too early for this? It was a really senior role. I thought, this is great in five years. But then you don’t. Don’t choose the timings of these things. Someone obviously saw the ability of me to come in and do a role which was acting as spokesperson for them and a very complex technical legal issue with all the. The doping scandals that followed, and, and one of the skills I had to do was go up and do public speaking, managing press conferences, you know, being under fire.

Minter Dial: Under fire.

Ben Nichols: Under immense pressure, under a very technical issue where journalists are trying to catch you out because you’re the global authority. And that becomes a story if you’ve not got the message right. And, um. And, yeah, alongside the chair and the, you know, the. The CEO of the company who, who years in the bank at doing this and who are the, you know, the. The front faces of the organisation. And you’re there as an extra spokesperson from the media point of view. But, yeah, you know, I had pretty much zero public speaking experience at the time. And as a. As a kid, I was shy until I’d say kind of a, you know, mid to late teens, and I had to go and do that public speaking. That was part of my role and it was sink or swim, and I did it. And you know what? One comment, someone said, oh, you’re really good at that. And I thought, God, am I really? I said, I hated that. And then I had to do it again. There was no way I had to do it again a few weeks later at a water press conference. And then, you know, lo and behold, a few people say, oh, you’re a natural, this. And you think, well, they’re not just saying it to be kind. Maybe one person does, but I think there’s a. Maybe a trend. And you think, well, actually, I can do this. So, it builds that confidence. And that was a case of. Actually, then I thought, well, I can nurture this skill. And that’s something I’ve got to do in my role. So, let’s, let’s embrace it. So, I think, yeah, embracing opportunities is something I try and do.

Minter Dial: Yeah. Leaning into the challenge because I think that a lot of people shy away from challenges not just because it’s change but because of risk of failure. And then once you have, you’ve brushed close to failure or even failed, it sharpens your. Well, hopefully your desire to continue on, fight through it. Of course, if you back down, well then that’s another story. But this notion of leaning into the challenge, leaning into the discomfort, I think is something that’s a tremendous skill or at least attitude to have and I would welcome others to take it on. I think we need more action. We need the ability to, to face challenges because we are surely going to have many more. But going back to this water experience, I mean naturally I’ve been close to sports all my life like you Ben and I even worked at the AIBA for boxing. And so, doping isn’t the only the domain of Russia. It’s the effects. The effects of that decision continue to impact of course professional Russian athletes. I just had Cassini Sharifa on my padel podcast who has to represent a blank flag amongst others. But you must have learned the inside and of course now your media training is going to kick in. There’s not just Russia from my. And if I, I’ll tell you the story. I have several stories of supreme athletes, I mean Olympians, gold medalists who are known for a running out the back door when the anti, you know, whatever urine test people came in the front door. I have an example of another tennis athlete who was paid off by Nike because he got busted. I’m not going to name names but it would appear that doping is such a almost intrinsic to sports. And what’s your. What’s. How do you view it from having been on the inside?

Ben Nichols: It’s a really good point. I went into WADA probably as naive as any 30 year old would be having read my books and this is just at the tail end of this is just after the US anti vaping agency had released their Armstrong report and Lance was on Oprah and you know, the mayor culprit, etc. And that So, I thought when went in it’s not going to get any juicier than this with media issues to have to contend with from a and lo and behold it then became a country and Russia at that. So, look, I went in as naive as any 30 year old having read my books and studied up thinking from an idealistic point of view, the goodies and the baddies, which is how it’s often been positioned in the media, far more complex than that. Far more complex. There’s inadvertent dopers, there’s people who dope and then really go on the aggressive in the attack, as we know, and double down on it and do it systemically. And there’s all sorts of different degrees of it. Yet there are the rules and. And they’ve got to be. There’s got to be lines drawn somewhere. So, I think there’s the. There’s different, you know, there’s the water rules and then there’s the ethics behind it. And that’s where you’ve got the grey areas of people saying, oh, well, they. They were within the rules, but should they have been taking X or Y? So, I think you learn being at WADA, the. There’s the sort of ethical argument behind it. You also learn that you’re towing the line of what are the rules, being informative and being factual with everything you’re providing. And what’s it like on the inside? It’s. Look, it’s a big organisation. Well, it’s a. It’s a. It’s a small organisation than people expected that time. I think we’re around 70 people with an office in headquarters in Montreal, Canada, and a smaller office in. In Lausanne in Switzerland. And people were thinking we were this great, you know, sort of, you know, gargantuan organisation, the IOC type level. And we. We were not. We were punching above our weight, and yet we came under for heavy scrutiny, as we should. But heavy, heavy pressure on the. On the Russia issue and sanctions. And I think a lot of people expected the world of WADA as this sort of magic wand of eradicating doping. That’s never going to happen. We’re there to try and we were there to try and reduce it and to. To also be proactive about, you know, educating people on why that’s the wrong choice, why we think the bul. People don’t agree with this as a. As an ethical or health. Health issue for athletes. And it was. Look, it was. It was sensitive with issues. You’ve got differing opinions, obviously, you’ve got the legal argument, you’ve got. You’ve got the sort of sporting arguments, you’ve got commercial side of sport, people around the Olympic Games wanting to ensure all are competing and everything is positive and happy and clean. And then you’ve got those on the kind of. More kind of seeing WADA as a police force. Of the world, you know, putting down the heavy, heavy fist of sanctioning. So, you had different. And that’s where kind of, without going into the weeds in it, that the Russia issue really brought to light the anti-doping system and its weaknesses and its, you know, opportunities to improve is kind of where you had those. And taking the hardline approach with a country like Russia and those so, you know, about individual responsibility and who’s culpable, et cetera. And I think that really played out publicly as to which side people fell on. But I think, coming back to your earlier point, yeah, really important to realise, you know, no, Russia was not alone in terms of, you know, being the only doping sort of country out there. There have been others where it’s been, others where it’s been kind of alleged or. Or, you know, investigated different. Different kind of levels of doping issues. They were the country that was, you know, that was. It was had a big report brought out and had, you know, significant sanctions. But there’s individual athletes out there who’ve obviously doped and there’s in different sports where it’s been systemic, like cycling. So, there’s no. I think you just at w. What you’re doing is looking at each case as that, you know, avoiding the outside, kind of ignoring the outside noise and looking at each case on its, you know, on the legal merits. And Russia was a situation we hadn’t seen before in terms of, obviously, everything that went on around the Olympics and everything that came out. But then you’ve got, you know, individual cases and you’ve got situations in different sports. So, I think that you just have to kind of almost block out the noise and look at each individually for the situation that it is and not try and draw comparisons of, you know, is Russia similar to what other countries have done or are other countries at it? People will always speculate, and we can only as an organisation a while ago, on the information that’s out there and that’s been. That’s been found and that’s how you have to kind of look at it. So, it’s quite long answer. Your question is quite pragmatic, quite technical. At the same time, you know, me and my department, we were this kind of gateway between the noise and the speculation and the sort of controversial side that the media push and this organisation, which was, you know, quite bureaucratic and quite, you know, regulatory and just trying to enforce rules that. That were in a world anti-doping code. So, we’re trying to, you know, bridge that gap between public interest and appetite for this Juicy sporting story and, and the practical need to, you know, you know, I suppose just protect athletes rights and ensure everything was communicated officially and factually and without, you know, without conjecture.

Minter Dial: Well, it, for me on the outside it does look a lot like you’re swimming upstream. Yeah, it’s just a friend of mine used to run ATP rules and regs and anti-doping and he talked to me about how really the top 100 ATP players, or presumably WTA, but it was, he was talking about the, the amends are able to afford to have what it takes to get around the, the doping testing techniques. And, And so, they, they carried around, he laughed about how they, some of them would carry around spare urine samples and that. What, how do you do that? And there’s, I mean it’s an expensive habit to do and you need to have a whole sort of system to, to figure that out if that’s your route. And at the same time it feels like if you, if you don’t try to carry out anti-doping, you are taking away from the credibility of the sport or at least maybe another piece of it, which is sports is supposed to entertain and inspire and if, if the inspiration is, well, you need to take drugs to have these huge ridiculous biceps or whatever. That’s not a very healthy message.

Ben Nichols: Yeah, and this was the, you know, people often use that line, you know, who can afford the, you know, the, the, the most expensive, unethical, you know, doctor out there to, to help them win this sort of arms race. Look, I think absolutely, you know, it came down to people see doping in a different way, different ways. People see it kind of very much from, you know, the ethical point of view, what’s right to take what’s not. You know, should they be taking that as an athlete if they don’t have, if they’re, you know, prescribed a, or they have a condition, you know, does it enhance their performance? Is it against this notion of the spirit of sport like you alluded to? And then, you know, something that often gets forgetting the health argument. You know, a lot of these substances are very unhealthy, especially taken in the quantities that, that cheats do take them. And, and yeah, it’s dangerous, it’s a dangerous use. So, there’s all these issues to weigh up and obviously that’s what the powers that be at WADA and the anti-opium authorities will decide before putting something on the list or not. And obviously some substances have been on the list and removed and some remain legal and then get put on the list because new evidence comes forward about their performance enhancing qualities or danger to health. So, it’s always an evolving issue. You know, it’s never done, it’s never going to be completely contained. But it, you know, I always came down to when I was working there of people saying, oh, you’ll never win this. It’s, it’s a very kind of simplistic way of looking at it and it’s, well, you know, if WADA wasn’t there, would people be happy? What sort of message would that send? Would the athletes be happy? And I think that’s what we came down to was who are our kind of constituents here? And we’re doing our best to, to, to the back the corner of the majority, the overwhelming majority of athletes who wanted someone to at least try and keep sport clean. And that’s, you know, that’s what Warren, the authorities are there for at the.

Minter Dial: Very least to keep the sport competitive because if it’s unbalanced and it remind, it reminds me of what just happened in the padel in the professional padel tour where the men went and boycotted two tournaments in reaction to, or at least in an effort to get more balanced for the lower, lower seated people who can’t afford to have an entire team. So, and then the schedule was always managed around the top players. And so, I thought at the end of the day that was a very, a welcome idea to help the lower ranked players participate and still compete.

Ben Nichols: I think absolutely it is, I think, and increasingly you’ll see, you know, athletes rights put more and more forwards, you know, in any sport because more transparent age and more democratic age, we hope in most instances. And that was actually coming back to anti-doping, that was a big, that was a big battle was the kind of who represents the athlete voice. We had an athlete committee at WADA, there were other athlete committees at the IOC and taking different views on how strong to be with a country like Russia with the issues. And, and yeah, it comes back to, you know, who the athletes have to have a voice because if you have a system with the rules in place that the athletes don’t buy into and don’t believe in and they question, then it doesn’t have the, you know, doesn’t have the trust and the credibility to, to be upheld in the same way. So, I think always representing kind of the athlete’s voice as best, you know, athletes will disagree on, on things internally, but having, trying to gain consensus on whether it’s anti-doping, whether it’s, you know, actually having an athlete voice at the table of the IOCs and the federations, you know, whether it’s on illegal betting, which became more of an issue, or integrity issues in sport, you know, having. Making sure athletes feel they have a representation there as to how these issues are managed and it’s not. Not suits. Doing it for them. I think is really important in Olympic sport because there has been distrust there between the kind of, you know, this notion of ivory tower Olympic federations and the common athletes, So, to speak. So, I think that’s important you have that bridge taken care of.

Minter Dial: It seems like a shared thought between civilians and politicians.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: Sports and the sports authorities. Ivory towers disengaged, disingenuous. With regard to what’s actually going on.

Ben Nichols: And I think just on that, actually. Yeah, I think it was certainly, you know, I’m going back to some. I have no kind of no view on how it is now really. But when I was at what. There’s definitely that perception of this, this gulf between the athletes and the anti doping bodies and, and this sort of tug of war, I suppose, you know, who speaks for the athletes. And that played out over the whole Russian issue, as we saw with the IOC and WADA and different federations. But I think it’s more prevalent in Olympic sport than it is in what I call private sport in the sort of. Yeah, the premier leagues and the major leagues and the formula ones. Because there is this notion of quite an old school Lausanne hotel corridor, you know, sporting world in the Olympic movement and that being very distanced from athletes. So, I think it’s. Olympic sport has a way to go to catch up with the sort of private sporting world in making sure athletes have a voice.

Minter Dial: I’ve never had somebody come on to talk about the business of the Olympics, but it would be interesting just to think about in the history of Olympia, how and when it became a business concept more than an amateur sports concept. Let’s park that, because I have lots of other things I want to talk to you about. I want to focus in on your communications background and let’s start with how over your experience you’ve seen through the transformation of all methods of communication being digital. How do you manage to keep a communication strategy that’s authentic, compelling, effective, especially during a crisis?

Ben Nichols: Good question. Becomes increasingly hard with time because of the volume of channels and outlets there are for people to speak and speak openly and. And to sort of manage the message, I suppose, is what you say in the industry. Look, I’m still, I’m 41 years old. I’m still of a generation where you kind of look at the traditional media as the, as the main source to push out a big message to. That said, they now obviously have their arms of what was Twitter and now X and you know, TikTok and all these other avenues where they push, push their messages. So, you need to be conscious that some things you’re pushing out proactive mess, you know, positive messages, I should say. Of course you want them to appear on their, on their, on their platforms, on online, it’s on, on their websites or in, in the paper, as we say. But actually you’ve got to imagine some won’t and some might only make the grade of a small story on their, on their social media So, that there’s, there’s a lack of. You can have the best relationships you want with journalists and the best media relations strategy, but there’s a huge amount uncontrollable in terms of, you know, the journalists I’ll be working with still have an editor to report to. There’s still in the mainstream media. I’m talking a real sense of clickbait mentality. You know, is there a. Say Padel, let’s take Padel. So, you know, that does a. I might have a great story on, you know, working with Play Tomic and some stats which are fascinating around the growth of padel in the UK or US or wherever it might be. But do we have a celebrity name to put, you know, a celebrity name to put to that.

Minter Dial: That kind of Longoria.

Ben Nichols: Oh, longer. I know, absolutely. Well, that would be fantastic. But yeah, you know, the number of times I see a David Beckham stock image photo used and that’s becomes a padel story with some pretty, pretty fluffy content in there. And I think, well, there’s some really interesting stuff in there which could, could tell a much better story. But unless you have a celebrity speaking to it or captured an event doing something, it’s, it doesn’t make the cut with these editors. So, I think that hopefully answers one side of your story in that it is increasingly hard to, to, to push these stories into mainstream media. I’m also doing it with a sport called Padel, which is a niche sport and we all hope and think there’s a good destination, but we’re on that journey and the early stage of the journey, So, it’s still very small and in a country like England, you’ve got, you know, unless it’s football, you’ve got to really argue the case of how it’s going to get in the sports, sports pages or on, on, on the news. So, So, you’re on. On an uphill battle with getting padel into the mainstream media. I suppose So, that’s one side. But look, I think the good thing is I’m working with early stage businesses who want advice on strategies on how to get their message out. And it’s not just via the media. I see public relations as, you know, it’s reaching, it’s influencing the public, it’s, it’s, it’s trying to leave an impression on the public or different audiences and that can be via media, it can be going straight to the, to the communities themselves. So, a lot of what I do is come and come up with ideas to reach the business community and that can be getting corporates playing padel. Can we reach school kids or young people? How can we engage university students? You know, the women’s side of the sport, that’s a big, you know, I think it’s 40, 42% or So, people say that of women play Padel. So, how can we engage the women’s community? So, it’s a lot of public relations I’d say is not just about as nice as it is getting, getting independent media coverage and as good as the credibility that can provide. It’s actually how can we get straight to these audiences through other ways, be they campaigns and that’s, that’s more within our hands. That’s, that’s coming up with good, clever ideas, that’s finding ways to resonate with these target audiences and that’s playing on padel’s trendy, unique kind of appeal and getting, you know, I think once people get on the court for the first time, they get very hooked. So, there’s many ways to promote and to be successful with strategies and helping businesses achieve their, their ob. But media is. Yeah, it’s increasingly hard because, because of the reasons I mentioned.

Minter Dial: Right. Well, let’s just lean into this moment, this notion of objectives. I worked obviously in a large organisation before L’Oreal and we did a lot of communications and we had a few things to sell And so, on. And I remember objectives being very much counted. We had this equivalency of dollars for advertising through our advertorial or our PR approaches today. Where are we on that? I mean, do, are, are we, do we have agencies now sort of evaluating one view of a TikTok image tucked up video of 10 seconds. That’s worth a value where. How are people setting objectives and measuring success in PR and communications?

Ben Nichols: Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. The way I learned was on kind of your ave or you know, the media value of, of Earned coverage. That is as far as I know. And there’s. From our side is still one. One way we work. Social media impressions and impact and increases of follows from a post or from a campaign is obviously, you know, another metric. But I try to, with what we do, try to look at it more holistically. I try to think, okay, well, if we’re working with a club, how can we look at, yes, those things I just mentioned from a. From a kind of media metrics point of view, but actually what does that lead to in terms of court utilisation? We’re talking slightly longer term, but you know, what people coming through the door or, or, you know, membership rates or expenditure at clubs, all these things. So, I think we. And that’s a work in progress, but we have to look at kind of, you know, what, what was the line in the sand before we came on board to do a job for a club? And then, you know, six, nine months down the line, what is it then? And how can that be attributed to the work we did to grow the profile of. So, I think there’s many ways you can look at it and that is the challenge, you know, of my industry, as you know, is, is I can’t preach about it enough. I think the storytelling side is great and people, when they see a campaign or a great article or a great piece in the media, they, they get very into it. But actually it’s always, how can you. How traceable is it? The, the work we do and the stories we tell that lead to a sale or a new member or a tangible outcome. And that’s, I think, the challenge that PR always has, which may be from a marketing point of view, it’s always easier to quantify because it’s more sales and stats driven. So, no easy answer to the question. But we try and look at it from different angles and, and you know, when we’re working with clients, it’s, it’s all the, you know, it is coming up with the, the stories and the things that resonate with people and make padel appealing to people outside the bubble. And that’s where that’s a big part of what we do is we’re saying, well, look, we know the sport well, we know what’s going to make it tick in the business press or the health and fitness press or, you know, through influences on social media channels or through the sport business press, if it’s a commercial agreement that we’re announcing. So, I think it’s. I’m constantly trying to look at how does padel Relate to non padel people. And that’s again coming back to those things about, you know, setting up a challenge. Absolutely. Setting up a challenge to run a PR agency in padel at this stage of its journey. Very, very hard the first couple of years. It gets more rewarding as padel grows, as hopefully the job we do gets better and as the bubble of potential padel sort of listeners gets bigger. So, our market is growing with us and hopefully our job gets easier over time because we’re speaking to a more receptive audience.

Minter Dial: In listening to you, Ben, I was thinking the notion we would talk about is attribution, where we have this view that’s turned into a customer and then a lifetime value. You would have thought that with digital means, the ability to track the attribution through cookies would have been simple and joyful. Yet a, we’ve had GDPR step in to sort of break the links, if you will. And then secondly, the more you can measure it like that, the more there is gaming of it and sort of. I would. I mean, you think of influencers who say, oh, I really love this brand. It’s called a. This thing, living it because I got paid a thousand bucks to talk about it.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And the authenticity of the messaging, as soon as it’s So, crafted, it smells like bs.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And then you have, as you mentioned, So, many channels to deal with.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: How do you keep the multiplicity of people who managing those channels speaking the same voice, keeping the same type of brand out there? It becomes very tricky if you’re not smart about it.

Ben Nichols: Yeah. Challenging. Really challenging. Yeah. How do you break through and ensure things are authentic when there’s So, much noise, So, many channels? Everyone’s an author, everyone has a voice, which is a good thing in many ways. But it also means there’s a plethora of stuff which is, you know, you don’t need to listen to perhaps. And, and you know, it used to be obviously we had our TV station, our newspaper of choice and maybe our radio station. Things were quite simple. Things have moved on in many ways for the good. But it also means it’s hard to control that message for sure. And hard to know what to listen to and where to find it. You know, it’s the fragmentation of society and of the media world as well. Go. How do I answer that? It is, it’s. It’s challenging. It really is. I think the best impact we can have is it comes back down to trying to be really focused on what we do for a client. And you know, again, if I take a Padel Club in the, in the States we work with, if it’s one, and, you know, working with a company called Conquer Padel, who are going to be opening in Arizona, in Phoenix area. Without going into our strategy with them, it’s going to be absolutely. How can we, you know, their first sight, how can we, as much as we want to give them credibility across the US and internationally and that’s all important stuff. How can we get people through the doors of their club and, you know, doing that through an influencer who actually lives in the area, who might come and influence local people because they are known through word of mouth, that’s going to have great impact, you know, rather than plucking someone from, who’s not from that area, that might, yeah, absolutely might look great online or, you know, what a great coup to find this, you know, this major league star from X or Y city that is. Has no, has no kind of geographical relevance to their first club. So, that, for instance, it’s about being, you know, not going for the big prize of what might look great and actually, ultimately, is it going to help them deliver some more, you know, some, some revenue, some members, some players. So, I think it’s coming down to simple ideas like that and it’s also going back old school to kind of in person events And so, forth. I think people absolutely crave that post. Post Covid. So, if we can organise good, you know, good events where we bring along journalists, we bring along some, some pro players for an exhibition, we bring along some local community people and people just get that experience in person. Again, I think that that kind of work generates memberships, it generates players coming, it generates a community. So, I think for clubs and places that rely on local custom, that it comes down to kind of doing some quite simple things really well. And yeah, that’s kind of how I would tackle it.

Minter Dial: So, two other areas within PR that’s interesting to me. One is the personal brand of the boss. So, let’s say you’re a major client, but the CEO of this organisation and you might be the PR spokesperson or you might be the PR agency helping them craft their pr. To what extent and how have you approached dealing with the personal brand of the CEO as part of the mix?

Ben Nichols: I have done that a lot during my anti doping days. I did it. I worked for the Commonwealth Games Federation after WADA as well. And again. And talk about another challenging, you know, topic of a quite an anachronistic in many eyes, sporting movement, many think is on its kind of last legs and I hope it’s not, I think the Commonwealth does a lot of good, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a difficult sell these days as a sports event.

Minter Dial: So, let’s say it’s easy for us to speak about it in Britain.

Ben Nichols: Correct.

Minter Dial: Yeah, we, we typically are happy with it. It’s maybe the others who aren’t.

Ben Nichols: Yeah, absolutely. So, it depends. Depends who’s, you know, whose eyes are looking through. But yeah, you know, I think I was working with the, the CEOs and I know. I suppose the best example I probably would give is, is wild. And I was working with and a figurehead chair. Figurehead chair being Craig Reedy who was former British Olympic association, big, big figure in the UK. But he was, yeah, he was the chair and then David Hellman is a Kiwi, was the hands on CEO based in Montreal. And you’re constantly, you know, I think it’s no surprise you’re constantly working through that challenge of who’s going to speak on certain issues. Is it the chair or is it the. Yeah. Is it the president or is it the CEO? Different individuals will have different views on the topics that come out as well. So, you are, how. I wish there was a kind of a science to it, but actually it’s about, and I hope this answers your question, it’s about being quite pragmatic, you know, collecting the views of the individual you’re representing or doing a statement for. It’s checking, it’s in line with the company’s, you know, company’s regulations and, and all of the kind of that boring stuff and it’s putting something across in a, in a way that’s going to resonate with your audience. Say for me it was the media in a way that’s not too dry, that might get used and reprinted and help tell the story and, and give WADA, you know, some exposure that we’re an organisation that needs to be heard in the issue. So, I think it’s, yeah, it’s advising them as well. So, you know, obviously, you know, a lot of people be aware it’s actually coming up with a statement proposing something for sign off that we think sounds in their language and getting to be there, you know, their voice and getting to know them innately to be able to, you know, speak on their behalf. So, I think it’s, there’s different ways of doing it and some characters more strong than others in terms of wanting their exact language and actually you getting to know and being there. Yeah, being that second voice for them. So, yeah, I think that’s, it’s a, It’s a challenging one and you only get through, get experience through, through hours on the job and knowing, knowing the people you’re representing. And I’ve always been a, you know, even when you’re dealing with anti doping and you’re, you’re working within these really tight parameters of, you know, kind of what’s, what’s the, what do the rules say? What’s the, what’s the legal argument and, and who are our stakeholders and how should we, you know, be communicating to them and, and all these different audiences. I’ve always taken the view that actually you still want to get as much personality across and then answer if you can as possible because there’s So, much out there that people just skim their eyes over and you want something that stands out. And I think if you can be a half decent narrator or a. All right. Or be good with words, I think people still, still value that and notice that in a kind of very, you know, vanilla world in many ways that we live.

Minter Dial: Yeah. Bring some colour. One of the challenges that you presumably face with regard to PR of padel players in particular, obviously one is that they don’t all speak English more than some large number anyway Hispanophone only with the occasional Brazilian. And the challenge when you’re representing them a little bit like the CEO is talking about now is that they are the media.

Ben Nichols: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And. And the. I used to send business people to Austin, Texas for South by Southwest. Not to go listen to the digital transformation one third of the, of. Of the conference south by Southwest, but to, to go and actually look at how musicians manage their profile. So, for CEOs to think about musicians personalities and having that run through the way they communicate and then. Or the storytelling that goes on at the film side of south by Southwest. So, how do you do storytelling? And anyway, So, this is sort of my viewpoint or my philosophy with regard to personal branding. And for the players, how are you finding it to. I mean I’m thinking between women and men, between Spanish and Argentina. I don’t know how you want to break it up, but how are you finding their ability to promote themselves to get out there? Presumably there are some who are just like a duck and water and then others like oil and water.

Ben Nichols: Yeah. So, look, in honesty, I’m not working with that many players at the moment because I found. Which is no. Is no fault of the player circuit, to be honest. They are at a situation where they are looking for sponsorship such as the infancy of the sport, especially in the Emerging markets. And of course my argument would be right, to secure more sponsorship and better commercial ideas, you need a better profile in pr. But we’re at that stage where we’re not talking about F1 drivers, where they have big PR budgets, etc. Interesting. So, that’s, you know, the bulk of my work is with businesses or companies. However, I have worked with some players, I worked with some GB players, I’ve worked with some American players and I think out there, yes, you know, there’s the, there’s the, the language challenge from the Spanish, you know, speaking players for sure. But I see that as an opportunity. If I was, you know, if I had, you know, 10 seconds to speak to the top Spanish players now, I’d say, you know, move to Miami. Move to Miami, Absolutely. Which one has, by the way, but Arturo.

Minter Dial: Arturo.

Ben Nichols: But I would say hire me because I want to grow your profile. I think there’s a great opportunity for you at this stage in your career to become a bit of a profile, a figure in the non Hispanic markets and grow your brand. It sounds cheesy, but grow your brand and actually make a name for yourself. People, I think people want to know who these players are, but they just, they’re not recognisable yet. So, that would be the message I send to some of the top players who, who are Spanish speakers. I think what I see at the moment is there’s a few standout performers, there’s a Brit Dubens in the US who is great and is doing some great work on, you know, on social media, is. Is great sense of humour and really showing her personality as well as doing a great job on the court. And I think that’s smarter. Brit, I think she absolutely, having spoken to her, she knows the big play of needing to get sponsors and needing to show who she is as a person as well as a great performer. Then you’ve got someone like Denise Hoffer and yeah, in Germany, likewise, both of.

Minter Dial: Both of whom have been on the Joy panel.

Ben Nichols: There we go. And look, doing a great job because she’s showing herself as a personality, who she is as a person. I can see she’s working with, you know, nice resorts with padel courts. So, yeah, she’s doing all the right things to get noticed by, you know, commercially and by the companies that are percolating in the sport. And yeah, I think so. So, my point being, when I see the players doing that, I think they see the bigger picture of, yes, I can do everything on court and I’m not going to distract from that. But actually I can put some time and effort to getting noticed amongst, you know, the bulk of players who will just be head down, not really worried about their media profile, how their personalities are seen away from the court, but perhaps forgetting the great opportunity here in a pretty unique time with this sport in that in countries where we’re living, we see it as a new sport and there’s going to be interest increasingly as there’s, you know, as it works towards the Olympics, which I’m sure it will, and, and the personalities that, yes, are at the top of their game in the rankings, but also have sort of shown themselves on different channels and have a, you know, a bit more noticed. That’s when, you know the opportunities will come to these guys because they are doing something a bit out of the norm. They are, yeah. They’re showing personality, they’re showing colour, as you said. So, I, I would like to see more of that from players. I’d like to see some more, you know, characters emerge. It’s, it’s across all sport that there’s, you know, it’s increasingly sanitised and media trained with. With all these guys and girls and I think it’s. It’s a shame when we want to see more personalities come out. I can see why also in the traditional sports, they’re afraid to, you know, afraid to reveal their personalities because of things getting taken out of context and, you know, going over social media and. And so, forth and, and we live in an age when, you know, offence is taken. So, I think, I would say show your personality, think laterally, use your own social channels and become your own author until the opportunity comes when mainstream media are coming to you for opportunities to tell your story. So, you know, keep, keep knocking at those doors for the likes of Brit and Denise and the opportunities will happen. They will. So, yeah, hats off to the. The few doing it well.

Minter Dial: Beautiful. Yeah. And I think one of the things that’s important within that A. Is to. To know what is your ethical or your, your backbone line within all that. And also to know your boundaries So, that you keep yourself safe because it’s easy to get sucked into that world and think, oh, how. Oh, this one only got 40,000 likes. Yeah, because my last one got a hundred thousand. Much better.

Ben Nichols: Yeah, you can become slightly obsessive over it, but I think, you know, again, the likes of Britain, Denise, you know, they. Well, I can’t speak for both of them, but I know, you know, Brits had, you know, support from a social media expert. You can see that it’s really brilliantly produced and, and just having someone on their team to help that is going to help, you know, just market them in the right way. And yeah, I think they’re thinking, they’re thinking bigger than Encore.

Minter Dial: I have two last questions for you, Ben. The first one is you’ve talked about being involved with purpose driven businesses or purpose driven leadership and I was wondering how do you define that and how has that influenced the way the projects, the organisations with whom you work?

Ben Nichols: Yeah, I suppose that again, that started with Wilder as So, much did and then that gives you, absolutely. That’s one thing you take away from WADA is that, you know, we got a lot of criticism for various reasons for a while but I think actually you, you, there’s a, there’s a clear compass of where you’re trying to head as an organisation and everyone, you know, buys into that internally and gives you this sense of working towards something, this sort of crusade. I suppose similar with the Commonwealth Games. I thought when I was there I, I still believe in Commonwealth sport and think it’s a great competition and think, you know, a lot of the top athletes in the world from Commonwealth countries. I bought into this idea of Commonwealth sport and what it could do and, and, and this notion of the Commonwealth which I think you have to working there as well, of it actually today being, being, you know, a force for good in many ways. So, again, come with that, kind of reinforce that and I think padel in a very different way. Yeah, sort of. I’m, I’m as, as, as many are in the early stage of the sport on a bit of a mission to, to grow its profile, to help more people notice what it is and to see why it’s attractive and appealing and exciting and, and, and yeah, I think in padel I feel we have to make sure we’re not drinking the Kool Aid as they say in America, but part of, in a pretty unique situation in our lives and careers where we’ve all grown up with sports and, and inherited their baggage as, as sports and as working industries, you know, the good and the bad of what they’ve done. Well, but padel, if we’re from outside the Hispanic world, we see it, you know, very much as a new sport and we’re able to help shape how it’s viewed and hopefully help shape the type of people playing it by the way we present it to media or to different audiences. And I feel quite kind of privilege at that early stage of helping do that in my own small way. And that’s what kind of guides me when I wake up on a Monday morning is this idea of, yeah, in 10 years it will be different. We’ll be at a different evolution. So, I, yeah, being. Being a kind of early adopter and as part of this, again, kind of quote unquote, you know, gold rush moment, it feels quite exciting. I’ve not had it before my career and won’t have it again. So, it’s, it’s unique and it’s fun.

Minter Dial: Well, I want you to describe at the end your padel 22. But how would you describe the purpose of building padel?

Ben Nichols: The purpose of building padel is to present this fairly quirky, maverick type sport that is, I think, appealing to a much greater pool of people than any other racket sport I know. I grew up playing squash and tennis and both quite difficult to learn and to master. And I think padel is, you know, not, not a, not a, certainly not Mickey Mouse by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s much easier to pick up. And I think that instantly, if you pick something up quickly, there’s enjoyment there and if there’s enjoyment there, you come back and you come back again. There’s the, there’s the sticky, the sticky kind of argument we talk about padel. So, I think it is.

Minter Dial: I should know something about 51 years of stuck to my padel racket.

Ben Nichols: Yeah, exactly. Perfect. Perfect example. So, I, Yes, I think it’s about, it’s bringing the horse to water. If we can get more people. Yeah, I’m focused on obviously the sort of the business and the industry side rather than the playing side. But actually, ultimately, why is everyone involved in the business side of Padawitz? Because there’s a great opportunity when people play it of massive enjoyment and massive kind of social, social buzz. So, if we can get more people to a padel court and from our side, that’s getting businesses successful, that’s getting, you know, that’s a job well done. If I can get more people aware of padel and excited around it and talking around it, that’s sort of a barometer of success as far as I’m concerned. So, you know, at the very high level, that’s what we’re trying to do and yeah, trying to, you know, without it sounding all too lofty, you know, trying to grow an industry and again, play my own small part in doing that and, and hopefully we’re doing a half decent job with it and sharing.

Minter Dial: The joy, as we say. Ben. So, tell us, when I look at your profile, Ben, I see a number of things within padel that you’re doing, padel 22 seems to be the sort of the peak of the top part of it. But what exactly is padel 22? And. And because you have seals like a number of bows within your archery kit that Padel22 is doing. So, give us an understanding of what Padel22 is all about.

Ben Nichols: Yeah, So, Padel22 is, is the day job. It’s, it is what pays my bills and it’s kind of my, my team I built is padel 22. So, that’s what I set up almost three years ago, a PR and marketing communications business, if you like, for the sport. And we work with clubs primarily. I’d say it’s been clubs So, far. Work with conferences the likes of RacquetX or Padel World Summit. We’ve worked with racket brands. So, Wallach Rackets are a company I’ve worked with which are a great brand and worked with the pro side. So, Hexagon cup, worked with for a good period of time, did some work with the PPR in the US and, and then work kind of, you have much more of individuals as well, kind of potential investors or people seeking investment or seeking sponsorship. So, helping on the strategic side for individuals and businesses who want to get into the sport, want to participate, put money in or want to be invested in to help grow. So, that’s the kind of the different sects and players as I mentioned as well and that’s kind of on their personal, personal profiles. So, that’s kind of within the sport. And then I’ve got a membership community I recently set up called insider22 which I’m delighted you’re part of, Minter.

Minter Dial: And thank you sir.

Ben Nichols: It’s, it’s great fun and it’s, yeah, an opportunity. I met Mayan Gordon who’s absolute firecracker and absolute genius at what she does in growing communities and creating a buzz online with, you know, creating insights and master classes and networking. Online networking and yes, essentially an online membership community for people in the padel industry who want to meet like-minded individuals again, who might be seeking investment, who might be looking for sponsorship, who might just want to find a business partner or might just want to learn. And that’s, that’s part of padel 22 and is a. Yeah, an online membership community that Mayan’s really driven, driven with me and then the other businesses as you mentioned. I think again choosing the timing of things isn’t always possible but working in one particular sport, opportunities and this is what I wake up with every day is thinking of A new idea and I have to be disciplined and keep myself in check. But last year, in the space of about four or five months, some other opportunities came up and in no particular order, one was Property and Padel which I set up thanks to Rohit Grill, who’s fantastic chartered surveyor in London and a padel. Kind of passionate padel aficionado and. And that’s a. Yeah. Essentially a networking and membership community for the real estate sector and padel and we’ve had a series of events in the UK and us. I’ve also had Club Agilas which I’m running with Joe Middleton who is a former CEO of Canterbury Rugby clothing and Levi Strauss and a great kind of fashion background and we’ve created there, hopefully the start of something really exciting which is a bit of a Michelin guide of. Of the top resorts and padel clubs globally. And the aim with that again we’re early stage, that’s a pre revenue project but the aim is to really build that into a. You know, the dream is to create a sort of Mr. And Mrs. Smith guide for. For high net worth wanting to travel and enjoy padel worldwide. So, that’s, that’s the ambition with that. And then. Yeah. What can I also tell you about Anglo American cup which is. Sure, yeah. Which is going to be first year in October in Rocket Padel with our new wow. Location in Beckton and hoping to be.

Minter Dial: A part of that myself.

Ben Nichols: Yes, we, we need to, we need to chat. But yeah, it’s, you know, as the name sounds, it is if you look at how the. The America’s cup and the Ryder and Davis couple started, it was all GB-US and I thought there was something, you know, slightly kind of, you know, turning that on its head. We could do with, you know, Britain and America being the new kids on the block with padel and recreate that Anglo American sporting competition. So, yeah, we’ve got lined up, you know, the best, best Brits and best Americans we can in London October open category. The top four players from a LTA level and the top national players. We can get sort of at that level. And then we’ve got the 40s, 50s and 60s category going into the seniors, men’s and women’s. So, look, 64 players. We will try and make this as fun and as kind of story driven as possible. We want to really play on this Anglo, Anglo American idea or we have American corporates in London that week playing British corporates and really play on kind of the culture between the two countries and make this into sort of a story on and off the court. So, yeah, and that will go to us next year. So, who knows where that goes? We’ve got LTA and USPA backing, which is a great start and a lot of excitement and support for it. So, all early-stage projects.

Minter Dial: That’s brilliant. So, I will circle back with you afterwards, put all those show notes links So, people can track you down, Ben, if they want to hire you. Also figure out how to maybe join the Insider 22. Look at what you’re doing at padel 22 and. And yonder, Ben, been great. Any other links, any other actions? Quick call to action you would like to pass along before we close off?

Ben Nichols: No, look, I think, I think, I think that’s, you know, that’s enough for people to digest with those businesses at the end. But they’re all, you know, exciting, exciting, exciting futures, I hope. And I think we’re at a really, a really momentous time with this sport and, you know, everyone I meet is unsolicited talking about padel, So, that’s, that’s a good, good sign.

Minter Dial: Enjoy the ride. Ben, thank you very much for coming on and vamos.

Ben Nichols: Thank you, Minter.