Minter Dialogue with Will Linssen

My latest podcast episode featuring Will Linssen, author of “Triple Win Leadership Coaching”. We dive deep into the state of leadership today and explore why so many leaders struggle.

Will shares fascinating insights on:

• Why only 5-8% of leaders are truly effective
• How ego gets in the way of good leadership
• The importance of humility and being “we-centered”
• Building trust through credibility, reliability and intimacy
• Co-creating change with coworkers
• Assessing and enhancing coachability

We also discuss the challenges of authentic leadership in today’s complex world. Will offers a fresh perspective on balancing transparency with discretion.

Whether you’re a coach or leader looking to improve, you’ll find valuable takeaways from our conversation. Will’s approach of “more structure creates more freedom” is particularly intriguing.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Will Linssen:

• Check out the Global Coach Group site here
• Find/buy Will Linssen’s book, “Triple Win Leadership,” here (Amazon)
• Find/follow Will Linssen on LinkedIn

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on my Youtube Channel, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on MegaphoneFR or in iTunes. And if you’ve ever come across padel, please check out my Joy of Padel podcast, too!rong> reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes.
Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Will Linssen, great to have you on my show. Author of this new book, “Triple Win Leadership Coaching. The Coach’s Guide to More impact, More coaching, and more Clients.” But first, as I like to do, Will, in your own words, who are you?

Will Linssen: Yes, who am I? I’m kind of born and raised in the Netherlands, had an international management leadership career and at a certain point really enjoyed leading teams, helping people, getting better. And I thought, yeah, you know, this is not about chemicals, plastics and pharma and the business I’ve been in, but this is really about helping people to get better with their people. And I really enjoyed that part of the process. And I thought, yeah, that’s then the business you need to step into. So, that’s a little bit like 25 years ago when I moved from large organizations into the leadership and coaching development space.

Minter Dial: And what makes that space interesting to you? Why is that of interest to you?

Will Linssen: Yeah, So, at the end of the day, the success of any business boils down to the right leadership with the right people. And the bottleneck that every organization has is most of the time not resources as in money, but it’s resources as in people. And every company has this strategy to kind of double their business in the next five or ten years or things. And then the main bottleneck is how do we get the people ready to lead that business at that level. So, it’s a people bottleneck that most companies have, not a other resource bottleneck.

Minter Dial: Well, I’m sure we’re going to get into that a little bit more later, but I’d love to start with a little bit of an overview. I mean, we’re going to talk about leadership in general, but how would you describe the state of leadership and society or maybe in society today?

Will Linssen: Yeah, we did some research around this over the years a number of times, and I always ask people, actually in workshops and in coaching sessions, you know, what do you think the percentage of effective leaders in organizations is? Right. And yeah, make a long story short, a single digit number, somewhere between 5 to 8% of effective leaders defined by, that’s the leader I want to work with. Right. And if you quickly make a calculation that extrapolates this over the lifetime of a worker, employee or a leader, that basically means that you have one or maybe two great leaders in your career and all the others are like. And when I tell that little longer story and have that discussion with people in my sessions, then people kind of see people thinking and they say, yeah, that’s about right. You know, I had this One person and this other person which were great leaders and all the other ones are like not So, great. So, yeah, the state of leadership has been not very great over the last many years and our current state doesn’t seem to be any decent improvement either.

Minter Dial: Do you feel, Will, that there’s been changes that have made the concept of a great leader more difficult in today’s world or is that just because that’s where we are today and it feels that way? Do we have any evidence to say that today’s world is actually more difficult to be a leader in?

Will Linssen: Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, over the last 20 years organizations have become more complex, right? Because they internationalized and the technology that supports organizations with IT systems and Internet and cross functional projects have made things more complex to run a business. And then on the people side there is a lot more diversity that came into the workplace, whether it’s women in the workforce or many more different nationalities that people are dealing with. Plus the voice of diversity has magnified immensely. So, there’s now more complexity in the business and the people that leaders are working with and leading are more diverse. And consequently also there is more complex to create buy in direction and unity in working together and collaborating in the workplace. So, definitely that has been more challenging. And I think on top of that all kind of society has become much more judgmental. Right? If a leader makes a mistake, it’s the loudest voice amplifies all that. And leaders are punished for that, rightly So, or not rightly so. But anyway that’s much more than in the past.

Minter Dial: Things like concepts anyway feel for me that have made it more difficult depend independent of, let’s say, or at least maybe empowered by technology. But things like authenticity, transparency, ESG, DEI, all these concepts, it appears to me these are new pressures that are specifically making the role of a leader that much more complicated. Because you have to do everything in a transparent way. You have to be authentic about you do you have to think about everybody in a nice way. You have to say it in the appropriate manner. How would you not describe those elements as also complicate, complexifying the role of leader?

Will Linssen: So, yeah, they are kind of wrapped up in some of the things I mentioned. At the same time I think there are some relatively simple solutions to that. Like the whole aspect around diversity is a lot of great leaders I’ve been working with and coaching for them, diversity say that’s very simple. Everybody has the right to voice their opinion. I’ll specifically ask for people to speak up because that’s why we pay people, that’s why we hire them. I want to know what they’re thinking. Because if they withhold the great idea from here, we’re just basically robbing ourselves from great ideas. That’s not a good idea. So, they think in terms of diversity is easy. You just need to give people the room to voice their opinion and ask for it. And that doesn’t mean that you have to listen to every voice and make leadership a democracy, but you need to be able to listen to what people have to say. Yeah. So, and then a lot of other things around diversity are become a non-issue. Like in our organization we have 4,000 people that are either part or linked to our organization. And we don’t think in terms of people’s passport or religion or gender, all these, or whether they’re engineer or not engineer. We don’t think in those terms because it’s not relevant to the quality of the idea and services that they provide yet.

Minter Dial: Are we requested to have visible diversity quotas? And that’s how many regulations or attempts at regulation are pushing at diversity that isn’t just diversity of mind or diversity of thought, but diversity of look, diversity of sex, diversity of creed. And that makes it all the more complicated to sort out performance versus just good to have or nice to look diversity.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, in most environments where these regulations exist, they’re not too well adhered to. Right. So, these guidelines are there, but everybody’s like, yeah, we’ll think about it later. And in some countries where they’re actually enforced, you see that it actually negatively impacts the quality of leadership.

Minter Dial: So, on balance you would say you’re not in favor of quotas.

Will Linssen: It’s important to have the best people in the best position that help to further the interest of the stakeholders of the organization, including the customers who in the day are paying for everybody’s livelihood. Right.

Minter Dial: You mentioned, Will, that 5 to 8% are great leaders. What is stopping the other 93, 95%, 92, 95% from figuring it out?

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, we actually did some research around faith-based leaders. I thought maybe they’re better because they really have some higher beliefs and higher goals and stuff like that. But actually to make a long story short, that was even worse. Right.

Minter Dial: So, ouch.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, it’s like, okay, that doesn’t work. So, we can analyze also why. So, it all makes sense now. What’s stopping the other ones? The main showstopper for other people is ego. When ego gets in the way, everything else kind of starts to stumble. The other realization Is no leader comes to work every day and saying I’m going to make people’s life miserable today. Right. But you know, in the course of work which is mired by solving one problem after the next, we just get into complicated conversations and at the end of the day people in the company walk out again and say I know that was again not a great day for me to be engaged as an employee. So, the intentions are not there, but stuff happens. And the ego of the leader many times puts the sand in the wheels or the stick in the wheels So, that things don’t go well.

Minter Dial: I mean I totally get that. Of course. How does one explain to an ego headed leader to get rid of his ego, his usually his man.

Will Linssen: But well we actually don’t. We tell people, you know, your ego is fine, you don’t have to get rid of your ego. But your ego is not always helpful. So, you need to understand that many times you need to check your ego outside the door and be in a conversation and be focused on the people around you. Very easy to demonstrate, very easy to illustrate. Put the same egocentric leader in a meeting with clients and they’re like tame like a lamb. Or they behave extremely professional, collaborative and constructive. Ask the right questions, listen to all the right things. But the same leader in a group, in a meeting with people in the organization and all of a sudden they feel they can’t not control their ego. And the easiest way for leaders to get that is twofold. One is helping them to realize that leadership is co creating change with co-workers. They do that everywhere in the organization. For every new product and service they create, for every project they manage, for supply chains, they try to improve everywhere. It’s about co creating change with coworkers because that’s why you have people in the organizations to work together with now to co create change with coworkers. You need to be we centered. You need to think in terms of the other people that you do that with. Customers the same thing. So, what do I need to do to mobilize the co-workers that I’m working with? And for that ego is poisonous. Now the catalyst and the vitamin, So, to say against or the vaccine against the ego is actually humility. And Gandhi actually defined this very well and said humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself less often. And that’s really it, right? As a leader, be more we centered in your behavior more often. Consequently you’re less me centered. And then the ego kind of dissipate, dissipates. It’s in the box, it’s under control. So, you don’t have to get rid of it, you just have to manage it. And by the way they do it at home, I’m, I’m in coaching conversations, I always use their family situation at home. They do the same thing. Ego at home most of the time doesn’t work very well. And they always kind of smirk and smile and they realize. Yeah, that’s right.

Minter Dial: Yeah, but, but they continue on to be bad leaders. It feels in today’s world, I mean, as you were saying at the very beginning, how many people you. How many good leaders you’ll have in your life? And so, there’s. There seems to be this sort of blockage. And on top of that, my observation, because I hang out with a bunch of CEOs as well, is that I’ve seen a lot of burnout. I’ve seen a lot of solitude, depression or angst, not sleeping well, not being well. And it feels like they’re just not a lot of capable or leaders capable of handling it all in especially today’s hypercharged, complicated FUCA world.

Will Linssen: Mm. Yeah. So, that is a sign of the times. Right. So, the, the way business rolls has accelerated a lot in the 90s. It has accelerated even faster in the, in the 2000s and is again accelerating much faster because of. Hi. Right. So, we are basically solving more problems faster than we ever have done, which is more taxing on leaders. So, part of that is that’s the reality of the game and that makes it more challenging for leaders to be less stressed and less burnout and all these things. But, you know, in a way, that’s, that’s the society we live in. Right. And that is something that cannot be changed as such. Right.

Minter Dial: I had a, another guest on my show, Rob, to mention him. Sorry, no. Pete Stag, who talks about accidental CEOs, that there are many CEOs sort of fall into the position of CEO rather than wanting to be part of it.

Will Linssen: And.

Minter Dial: It’s one thing to say, well, I wanted to be this, I wanted to get that. So, I’m going to handle all the pressure and the shenanigans and the challenges. But the one who sort of gets promoted just because they were the best salesperson or promoted because they came up with the best marketing campaign or whatever and end up in position higher, higher, higher until they get promoted to be CEO. It feels like even in the preparation to become CEO, there could be work to help people to get better prepared. What sort of work would you suggest for someone who’s thinking of becoming a CEO or once aspires for that.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, two things I would highly recommend. So, one is understand your authentic leadership model. So, understand how you authentically lead very well. We have a kind of module that we give leaders to do that themselves, and that is based on a book from Bill George, on True North. Because people need to be comfortable in who they are and also be convinced about that who they are is all right. And they need to understand how to articulate how that authentic leadership model is being kind of broadcasted into environment and basically saying, this is right. I know I’m not everybody’s person, but what I do, there’s nothing wrong with it. Right. So, some people are very decisive. There’s nothing wrong with it. But as a leader, you need to realize that, okay, you still need to listen to people’s voices, then you can take it back and make the decision. So, being decisive is fine, but you need to be clear about to the people around you, how you communicate, how you decide, how you collaborate, the values you have, all these things. So, be vocal about that. Be articulate and vocal about it. So, that is one thing. And then the other aspect is as an upcoming leader or CEO, understand the competencies that you need to improve to be at that next level. And it’s quite simple. You can look or ask the people in the next level, ladies and gentlemen, what do you think I need to improve to be better at So, that I can. That I can work at your level. And that could be things like better at stakeholder management, better at influencing, better at executive presence, better at thinking strategically. Whatever that competency is, know it and then work on it and get yourself kind of assessed in how are you doing in your capability to operate at that level. So, then you’re not surprised when you’re on the, on the top level, but then you’re ready when you’re at the next level.

Minter Dial: All right, So, you, you were talking about authenticity and getting to know your values. Before we started recording, we chatted a little bit about this idea of, of your true self. And you might have an opinion that’s not politically correct. You might have an opinion that could irk some people. How do you cross the T, or, you know, let’s say, make the equation between being authentic and truthful, because let’s say you cannot say your truth. So, it’s like a white lie. But how can you be authentic and carry with you thoughts that in your truth are not necessarily popular? It feels like it’s a little bit Of a paradox.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, a part of that is in terms of truth and honesty. To be honest, it doesn’t require total disclosure. You can be honest in what you say and mean what you say, but you don’t have to disclose every little detail or all the details, which is very normal. We do that in our, in our life all the time. Right. When you come home as a kid or as a parent or whatever, and what have you done today in the office or why are you late? You can still disclose the truth without disclosing everything. And that’s fine. At work with business, the same thing. Why would you make this decision? Well, these are the reasons we made the decision. And that can be truthful, but it doesn’t have to be complete disclosure. Right. So, it is one aspect to it. Yeah. What was the other part of your question? Sorry.

Minter Dial: Well, the idea. So, if I just stick with what you just talked about there. So, being transparent typically is a request for full disclosure. That’s sort of what the pressure behind that is. And if you’re not fully transparent, then you’re not being fully authentic is somewhat the narrative that I see out there. And so, the, the challenge is how do you qualify being authentic when it’s not necessarily the full truth? You know, the, the Americans I say, do you, you promised to say the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You know, that’s in the court of law. Of course, we’re not in a court of law, but we are being judged, viewed the media as quick to jump on big leaders in particular, and they’re going to jump on you for even in your private life. So, the challenge is this idea of being authentic and, and being truthful. It’s a really tricky tightrope to walk, it seems.

Will Linssen: Yes, it is a, a tightrope to walk, but at the same time, transparency does not equate total disclosure. Because in many business decisions, just as an example, in many business decisions, total disclosure would be either illegal or against compliance or would put information in the hands of people who are not allowed to have that information or even information that goes public that not supposed to be public. So, honesty means what you share should be bulletproof, but it doesn’t mean total disclosure. I worked with managers who told me, well, these, and these aspects you are discussing with our joint venture partners or with clients, I don’t want you to talk with me about because if something happens and I have to hold up the hand in court of law to tell the truth, I need to be able to have and to be Able to have kind of denial of information that I really don’t know.

Minter Dial: It speaks to a topic you write about, which is this notion of trust. Well, if I focus on the topic within your book, which is really about leadership coaching, trust is a fundamental part in coaching when you’re dealing with CEOs. But I, and I would argue that trust is a fundamental part of any relationship.

Will Linssen: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And. And it, it feels in a coaching world that this is going to be true, that trust is personal. But in a business context, I was wondering what. To what extent you believe that trust is personal.

Will Linssen: So, trust doesn’t have to be personal. When I would define what trust in a collaboration means that if I work with a colleague or a business partner, then trust means that we have agreed on what are the goals and results that we’re trying to achieve So, that we trust that we end up in the same point down the road. And the other trust is that I trust that the how in how we’re going to execute to get there, that I trust in how they’re going to do it and that I’m okay with that. Now, that trust can be very explicit, as they have explained to me exactly how they’re going to be doing. And I’m thinking, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Go ahead. Or the trust can be much more implicit. And I’m thinking, well, as long as they follow the procedures that we have laid out in the organization or SOP or compliance standards, then if they follow that, we should be okay. I don’t need to trust that. Or it’s a personal trust, as in, you know, I can trust that person as a professional So, well that I don’t need to know how they’re going to do it because I can trust them. That’s what you do with your doctor and your lawyer.

Minter Dial: Well, you have a formula which is very intriguing. Well, trust, and I’m just reading, is credibility plus reliability plus intimacy over self orientation. So, first of all, I’d love for you just to unpack how you came up with that formula. The intriguing part was the self orientation.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, I came up with that formula by reading the book of David Meister, who basically wrote a whole book about the trusted professional and uses this formula. And as a coach. Right. As a service provider and as coaching you are a service provider, then the trust of the service that I provide as a service provider, if my opinion right, and if the quality of the service depends on how I think the quality of that service is, that easily convolutes or undermines Trust. But if I deliver a service where my opinion is not included and the opinions of others are established, and that’s a great service, that is an amazing trust marker that I can put out there. And that is exactly what David Meister, who came from a consulting perspective around the trusted professional, put out there. So, that exclusion of the opinion of self in the trust equation is hugely powerful. And that’s what we do in our coaching.

Minter Dial: Getting rid of a little bit of the ego.

Will Linssen: Yeah, the ego has no place then altogether. Right. Because the ego of the coach is definitely a party. Spoiler. Very, very quickly.

Minter Dial: While your book is really focused on coaching.

Will Linssen: Yeah.

Minter Dial: Which is really the subject. But I parallel into. Because, I mean, obviously there’s some coaches who are listening, but most of the time they’re operational people. And where I want to make the parallel is gaining trust with your leadership team, for example. And in this context, this notion of intimacy for me directly speaks to the idea of being personal. There’s no way intimacy is anything other than personal. You know, you’re a father, you have kids, kids at the hospital. Being able to have those types of conversations builds trust. And yet, you know, back to the initial thesis, which is So, many people are bad at being leaders. Is there not also another place where people just don’t know how to be personal? Don’t fear the idea. If I tell you that I’m sick or if I tell you that I have a problem at home, this will be used against me. Or maybe there’s a chip on the shoulder with regard to stuff. I. I don’t know. But I feel like that within the personal sphere, which is also probably going to relate back into the mental health issues. There’s a whole body of work about allowing for personal elements. Personality in the workplace, because we don’t tend to equate with personality or personal issues. Performance.

Will Linssen: So, what is the exact question you’re asking me here now? So, I totally agree with what you say, but before I react, what is. What is the question there?

Minter Dial: Just a comment. You know, I sometimes put out things.

Will Linssen: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And I imagine the brain is whirring along.

Will Linssen: So, the definition of trust is that I tell you something or tell my colleagues something that they could hurt me with, but they don’t. So, trust is not a digital concept. Trust is a layer by layer, built step by step. So, the more you trust people, the more you can open up about who you are and what you do and your weaknesses and things like that. Because, you know, these things are safe with those people. Now, that doesn’t always work like that. That’s why people feel that their trust is being abused or misused or all of a sudden people change their mind and now they disclose information they shouldn’t, and then all hell breaks loose. But that’s the building of trust. So, you can still be very authentic and being vulnerable. And at the same time, you need to realize, okay, well, I can disclose these things because that is fine. It’s very personal, but that is not something people are going to hurt me with. But some other things you might not. Yeah, you can be said that’s very authentic, but that could be a disqualifier. Right? I mean, one of the people I personally know, I know they use recreational drugs, right. And I told them personally several times, if this comes out at work, that might be okay with some people, but. But it also might be okay with not okay with a lot of other people. And that definitely going to impact your career one way or another. So, recreational drugs at work is something that is probably not handy if you want to move on in your career fast and. Well, just as an example. Right. So, your authenticity should be useful to others, but it also should not disqualify yourself because then you’re just not helping yourself.

Minter Dial: But it’s a very tricky road to part. I’d be back to the tightrope story because if, if I don’t know what you truly believe, because I’m just going to whitewash some of the elements, then how do you garner true trust when you know the person is just waffling? You know, I’m neither black nor white. I don’t believe it has to be right or wrong. I’m just going to be plain vanilla all the time. I, I believe all religions are great. I believe all people are perfect. You know, I, the whole, the, the. The human race is my race, for example, these types of epithets that people like to drop out because it’s pleasing to everybody and not hurting anybody. But at the same time, we, we need to be able to take risks. We need to push ourselves out there. And if you don’t take risks, you don’t stand out.

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, a lot of has to do with kind of reading between the lines and also creating clarity for yourself where there is maybe gray zones. I’ve been doing a lot of work in Asia and in the Middle east, which is also part of Asia, obviously. But, you know, in some of these countries, like China, Japan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, United Emirates, you have a lot of intricate differences between various local groupings. Right. Whether it’s Koreans or Japanese or people in Saudi, whatever. And then you have foreigners, right? It’s like, yeah, we have these other people, they’re just foreigners. And you just need to, you need to realize as a foreigner it’s like, yeah, you know, I’m not ranked in this system here. I’m just here, I’m an outside help, right, so. And they don’t have to express that authentically to you and what they think about you, but you shouldn’t just assume, right, that that’s the way they think about done. Right. So, that doesn’t make it more or less authentic or more or less honest that it’s just about how their view of life and whether I agree with that or not agree with it is totally irrelevant because I’m a guest in their environment doing work. And then you either accept it and you stay or you don’t accept it and you go somewhere else.

Minter Dial: Well, So, basically the core thesis in your book feels for me that it’s all about co creation. Co creation leading is co creating change with your co workers. So, how does this philosophy transform traditional leadership coaching in your mind?

Will Linssen: Yeah, enormously. Because a lot of these questions on, on kind of trust and truth and diversity are automatically resolved is if I’m co creating change with coworkers. Right? Because if myself and many of my clients, we have international remote teams. So, you work with very diverse people. And the question is very simple. If we want to do this in Saudi Arabia, how are we going to do that? We ask the co workers there how they want to do it. We have that conversation. This is what you think, what I think, what everybody thinks. Okay, now based on that, this is the way we’re going to do it. Let’s go. That automatically addresses all the diversity and differences that exist in people’s mind in the situation, et cetera, et cetera. And then you come to a co created solution. And co creation doesn’t mean democracy, but it means good or 100% buy in and 100% commitment without 100% agreement.

Minter Dial: That’s an interesting equation. I’m just wondering, Will, to what extent your, your book has been informed by working in those types of cultures. And my specific thought, my little a priori thought is there they seem to be for having worked there myself in, in many of those countries anyway, there’s a little bit more hierarchy and, and maybe more traditional approaches to work. The idea of co creation is, is not new in a world of, or you know, in an Anglo Saxon world, but it might be a little bit newer let’s say in Riyadh or in Tokyo or Korea, even in China. So, react to that for me.

Will Linssen: Yeah, that’s very normal. And that’s. So, most of the leaders we work with are people who work in international organizations. Right. So, that can be a foreign company in Korea, Japan, Saudi, any country. Right. Or it can be a local company in Japan, Toyota, who is global right now. Always when we work with those leaders, and I’m working with, with Chinese and Japanese and Korean and, and Saudi and, and other and Indian people at this very moment on exactly all these things, they know that if I want to work as a leader in this organization across geographies, I have to co create, I have to ask questions rather than telling people what to do. I have to not assert my authority through power, but through being a great leader by getting people together and get the buy in and get going together. So, yeah, I’m aware of all these hierarchies that are existing in those organizations. However, the leaders that we are working with, they know that the traditional methods are not going to be the methods of the future. So, it’s a lot about respecting the past, embracing the future, respecting the culture, embracing co creation. And then you see it works now kind of in addition to that, in these hierarchical societies like Middle east and most of Asia, once these leaders are going to their teams and asking them, hey, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? All of a sudden they realize, wow, my team really knows a lot of stuff. I got some great ideas. This is really lovely. I have an amazing team to work with. They realized that they were basically putting a lid on things in the past with their style, which was not very helpful. People see that co creation change is the way forward. Every international organization has that high in their value statements and the way they in their way of work and their culture. And then on the flip side, in the Anglo-Saxon world we have this assumption that we are much more open to this co creation. But when you look into the newspaper in certain important centers around the world, whether that’s in some parts of the US or some parts in Germany or France, that hierarchy also is still very, very, very much there. Right. So.

Minter Dial: Oh, 100%.

Will Linssen: Yeah.

Minter Dial: So, what about assessing coachability? You, you say that coachability can be a big stumbling block. How do you figure out or assess whether a leader has coachability and how do you enhance it when you in your role as a coach?

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, coachability is super important because people who are not coachable basically have a lot of Ego related needs that are consistently coming into that leadership equation. And the way we assess that is actually very simple. We have a conversation with leaders around what we call I go. We go, let’s go. So, I go is as a leader you need to realize that if I want to change that I’m the one who needs to take responsibility for my own change. There is nobody else who can do that for me on my behalf. So, I go first. That includes the recognition of, you know, I’m not perfect. I really need some help in moving forward and be better. And it’s not too complicated for people to get that because since we were born, we have been changing and developing and learning. And the whole point is, yeah, you need to keep that learning system going and that I go, responsibility is there, then the next step is we go. As a leader, you need to realize that as you want to improve something, let’s say collaboration across functions, I need to recognize that the people I work with have valuable ideas and valuable inputs that I at least want to know and probably good to consider and maybe take some of these great ideas and implement those. Because at the end of the day, as a leader, we need to be better together. Leadership is not something I do for myself. Leadership is something I do towards the people I lead. And then last but not least is let’s go. That’s about doing this together and implementing that change. Now why is that let’s go So, important? If I as a leader try to get better on my own, then it’s a very solo journey. If I involve my co workers, then not only do they get involved, but you also see that over time they become accountable in that change as well. For instance, collaboration across functions with my co workers, all of a sudden they realize that it’s not just me who is getting better in collaboration across functions, but they feel like, wow, yeah, I’m also actually accountable in working with my leader manager together in getting better in collaboration across functions. So, this, this is a two way street or a joint responsibility. And that as a leader is very powerful. Now for that you need to be coachable. So, be high on. I go, we go, let’s go. Right, So, be high on that. We centered thinking in leadership and, and ego is counterproductive in that process.

Minter Dial: Yeah, you mentioned, I’m just going to cite it but then move on to a last question which is the triple win delivers better leaders, better teams and better results within 95% success rate confirmed by co workers. So, obviously a good path to take. All right, last question. Which is another one of those things that struck me, which was the paradox that is within this sentence. More structure creates more freedom to do more things. So, more structure creates more freedom. Can you explain how structure and customization coexist in your coaching methodology?

Will Linssen: Yeah. So, the structure is there to know and understand how I get from point A to point B in being better at this. It’s like a fitness program that I’m using to build leadership muscle and lose leadership fat, just to use that metaphor. So, I have a fitness program that is structured, use this machine, do this and that at the same time. Then it gives me the freedom to do many other things alongside of that or on top of it, because I know that I always can go back to the structure to make progress. So, if my additional freedom of the other things that I’m trying to do don’t get the results I’m looking for, then you can always go back to the structure So, that progress helps. So, to use a fitness metaphor, I know that my fitness program helps me to build muscle and lose weight. Now, I could say, I’ll try a different diet because I want to eat more chocolate or more fruits or whatever, and that increases my sugar intake. And then I have the freedom to do that. And then later on, I can see how that impacts my overall picture. And I realize, yeah, that actually works, or it doesn’t work. And now I can go back to the structure and focus on, okay, let’s do this first. Let’s try something else with the freedom I want. So, in coaching, the same thing, the structure helps to understand that progress will happen as long as you use the structure, and within that structure, you can have the freedom to move around and do other things that you also think is important. Makes sense when I’m explaining like that.

Minter Dial: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, that’s within the coaching framework, and that makes sense. I suppose it’s, you know, taking a step back, going, meta. The idea of structure and freedom is a funny box within which to work.

Will Linssen: Yeah.

Minter Dial: All right. So, Will, thank you for coming on the show. Talk to me or talk to us about who you’d like to contact you and who should read your book and how to get it.

Will Linssen: So, the book is on. On Amazon and everywhere else where books are sold. So, that’s an easy one to how to get the book. It’s available in Kindle and paper and print formats. The book is made for coaches. So, as a coach, if you want to coach, if you want to be a leadership coach, right or are a leadership coach and you want to get better results then that book is great. If you want to coach people in your organization you can also use the book very well for that. So, that is one thing. And if you have questions around the book there is an E learning that you can have free access to as part of the book. So, use that. Email us@coachlobalcoachgroup.com for any questions around the coaching methodology. And if you want to be coached as a leader in your organization then of course you’re also most welcome to call us as well. So, we train coaches in this methodology and certify them. We coach leaders to help them to be more effective with their teams or their whole organization and we do that all around the world. We have 4,000 coaches that we trained and certified in this methodology and they all have that 95% success rate because that’s how the methodology works.

Minter Dial: Very impressive.

Will Linssen: Well thank you.

Minter Dial: Many thanks. Hartelijk dank.

Will Linssen: Thank you.