Minter Dialogue with Saul Ezra

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

Site(s) mentioned:

• Prior conversation with Dr Chris Kerr on Minter Dialogue

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Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: So, Saul, I’m excited to have you on my podcast. This is great. You and I know each other, thanks to your son Adrian. And we wanted to have an interesting soulful experience with you, appropriate for your name. So, in your own words, Saul, who are you?

Saul Ezra: Well, I’m. I’m a Jewish, Iraqi born, emigrant to India. I lived in Bombay for 50 years. I was born in 1941 during the British Raj.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: So, I learned English as the first language. My parents were very, very English. My father came from an upper middle-class family in Iraq. In Bombay.

Minter Dial: In Bombay.

Saul Ezra: Iraq. Had left in the 19th century.

Minter Dial: I see.

Saul Ezra: End of the 19th century. With the Sassoon families for business.

Minter Dial: I see.

Saul Ezra: So, we lived in South Bombay in a very nice area. We went to a Jesuit school. So, I studied, supervised by the priests in Bombay. And the priests were Spanish, Portuguese, but they spoke English and we learnt English. So, basically the background is very, very British.

Minter Dial: Right. What did the Jesuit school teach you?

Saul Ezra: Everything, Every single thing. English language, English literature, maths, coordinate geometry, history, geography, art. So, I loved art and I practised drawing and I was good. So, they decided, the school decided that I should become an architect because I was good at maths, and I was good at drawing.

Minter Dial: India is very well known for having a very strong educational system.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: And it’s a strong value in the Indian culture.

Saul Ezra: Very much so.

Minter Dial: Comparing to the way typically Indians are being educated, what did the Jesuit education give you that was different from what a typical Indian education might have been?

Saul Ezra: Well, they made us realise the value of life. I would have nothing against the Jesuits, except there was always a slight rumour of. Of the older, older Jesuit men slightly abusing the children. But it never really affected us and nobody ever tried it on me. I was a very clever boy. I was very good sportsman and I enjoyed life. Life was wonderful. I did what I had to do. I. I played badminton, I played football, I played hockey, I played cricket, I was a fast bowler, I did everything.

Minter Dial: Or an all-rounder. In sports.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: But in education, if I take the European style, where we tend to promote the sciences, for example, studying art, for example, in France is considered a sort of off the beaten path. How was it for you to study art when you.

Saul Ezra: I never studied art. There was no question of art. Art was a subject, one of eight subjects. So, when I did my GCSEs, it was just one item. And the teacher who taught art took me out with my cousin and said, both of you all are very good at drawing and you’re. Would you like to be an architect. So, I never knew what an architect was. I was 16 years old, and my mum explained it to me and I said, why not? Sounds interesting. So, basically I was led, right? I was led by the Jesuits, who were very kind. I was led by my mother, who was an extremely brilliant woman. And I just went ahead and did what I had to do.

Minter Dial: So, tell us a little bit more about your family. How many siblings?

Saul Ezra: Well, my father was 20 years older than my mum. My mum was extremely brilliant. My father was from a very good family, but not that interested in business. So, we were six of us. My eldest sister, Lillian, she became an actress. She was a very, very beautiful girl and she worked in Bollywood for a couple of years. She didn’t like it. And in 1962 she came to England, got married in London and lived in London for many, many years. I, of course, became an architect and I was my mum’s favourite. So, I stayed on my younger brothers. The younger one next to me, the boy became an actuary, came to London to study actuarial science. The still younger one came to London to do accountancy. And today he is my. He was my partner in the company which we built in London. And we built the company in 1989.

Minter Dial: Right. So, up until 1989. So, when you leave university learning how to, you get a degree in architecture?

Saul Ezra: Yes, that’s right.

Minter Dial: You practise architecture in Bombay? Mostly.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: And what sort of architecture did you do?

Saul Ezra: I thought I would do design and based on flair and wonderful ideas. But I slowly gravitated towards business. So, I mixed architecture with property development and business to make money for my clients.

Minter Dial: Right. So, the business of building, as opposed to building for business, I designed the.

Saul Ezra: Buildings with the concept that the people who were my clients made money.

Minter Dial: Right. So, the building can help them make more money the way it’s designed.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: And so did you do things like hospitals or just specifically?

Saul Ezra: Not at all. Never, because again, that is based on design, on a specific design. So, basically, I built housing.

Minter Dial: I see.

Saul Ezra: So, the largest houses I built was 20,000 apartments in Bombay, in the suburbs of Bombay.

Minter Dial: That’s a big building.

Saul Ezra: Yes, it was. I did.

Minter Dial: It’s a mini city.

Saul Ezra: Yes, a mini city. I did a lot of work and I enjoyed every moment of it. I worked very hard, but I enjoyed it.

Minter Dial: I want to get back to the architecture later, but let’s describe the fact when you came to England, you came to England in 1989, is that accurate?

Saul Ezra: To.

Minter Dial: To live? Yeah.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: Not the first time, of course, because you already had your sister here since the 60s. What made you choose to come to England? You had a choice, presumably.

Saul Ezra: My entire family was here. My wife’s family was here, my brothers were here, my sister was here. So, for me it was. And we come every year. I send all my children to London every year on vacation. So, it be. It’s a second home. So, we were comfortable, the language was easy and there was no problem. What made you.

Minter Dial: Because Adrian, amongst others, Daniel, living, you’re sending them to university in America. You know the Indian education.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: You know, the English education system. And then. Yet you chose the American system for university. Why did that happen?

Saul Ezra: Basically. Basically, I always felt America was the most powerful country and a country that was growing. Now we are talking of the 1980s. And when I trained Adrian to become and to be obsessed with squash, he followed what I did and he took it way ahead of me.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: And when he became a national champion at the age of 16, which was quite stunning, which was more than I expected.

Minter Dial: This is in India.

Saul Ezra: In India. He was in India at that time.

Minter Dial: And that’s an era where you have very good Indian players. I mean, very good Pakistani players, too.

Saul Ezra: So, he became a very, very, very talented player. Now, the other boys also went to Harvard in his classmates, his elder classmates and his squash group. So, we thought, why not? So, we took him to New York to see if he liked Harvard, Princeton or Yale, because he got offers from all of them. The Americans are not slow. The moment they saw this young boy becoming a national champion, they targeted him. So, Princeton, Yale and Harvard, all three said, come to us. We are ready to take you.

Minter Dial: What made the choice? Harvard. We loved Harvard, Cambridge, Cambridge, the River.

Saul Ezra: Charles, the whole system. And not only that, two of the other boys who played squash with Adrian and slightly older than him were in Harvard and very happy.

Minter Dial: Oh, for sure. It gives him a little bit of a feeling of homeliness to have two other friends. Of course, that makes sense.

Saul Ezra: The only problem he had, there were no chillies to eat, so the food was a bit bland, perhaps.

Minter Dial: I’ve always said London is the capital of good Indian food.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: Do you agree with that?

Saul Ezra: Not in those days.

Minter Dial: Not in those days. All right, so basically, Sol, you had a very half Indian, half English existence. At least you’re dual in culture. What does that duality brought to you, do you think?

Saul Ezra: Well, as I grow older, I beginning to get more Indian. Quite funny, because I was born there and that is my spiritual home. So, I am very, very British. My concepts are very British. My Culture is British, but at the background, that little nagging feeling is Indian.

Minter Dial: What does that mean? What does it mean to be Indian for you?

Saul Ezra: It’s the kindest country in the world. It’s a culture that I embraced because I was given everything. I had servants, I had a chauffeur, I had money. We had everything. And the people who worked for us never hated us, never felt envious of. Of our success. They lived with us. So, we have servants who were virtually brought up with us till they died in the same family. Nobody changed. They loved the family. The family was part of their family.

Minter Dial: A little bit of upstairs, downstairs.

Saul Ezra: Very much so. Very, very much so.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: You know, we never even thought about it as being separate. Our servants were part of our lives and we looked after them and loved them.

Minter Dial: So, another layer in all this, of course, is that you’re Jewish.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: So, how has that heritage impacted, informed your life?

Saul Ezra: Unfortunately, I am not a very religious person at all, so it doesn’t really affect me. It never did. Never did.

Minter Dial: It’s never been part of your identity?

Saul Ezra: It is part of my identity, but at a distance, separate.

Minter Dial: And why that distance?

Saul Ezra: As I said, I became more Indian.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: When I was living there for 80 years. I’m dealing with building, construction contractors. My language. I spoke Indian languages fluently because I have to deal with these people.

Minter Dial: How many languages do you speak?

Saul Ezra: Basically, 3.

Minter Dial: But of the Indian languages, Indian, 2. Which ones? So, Hindi.

Saul Ezra: Hindi and Marathi.

Minter Dial: Marathi, yeah. And then English, of course.

Saul Ezra: English, of course. And French as a second language.

Minter Dial: Monsieur, I wonder a lot about the Indian culture. And, for example, there’s a larger percentage of CEOs in America of the big Fortune 1000 that are Indian than should be of their representation. There is a larger number of unicorn startups that have a billion-dollar valuation or higher that come from India. Why do you think that is? Why is India specifically leading that charge?

Saul Ezra: You know, I’ve often thought about it. The way I look at it is the way the education is given to us in India. We regurgitate.

Minter Dial: You learn regurgitate.

Saul Ezra: We regurgitate what we have learned. Now, you, the IT people, when they regurgitate what they have learned, it becomes very static. It doesn’t become broad. The education of the IT guys is not a broad education. It’s very specific, very deep. Very deep. And they took that to India, to England, to America. I am. I often wonder about the same thing.

Minter Dial: Is it because compared to the broader education offered in England with the gcse, in America, with the liberal arts, Type of approach. You guys come with expertise.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: But this does not explain to me the leadership quality, being very good in a deep area. Like, I know my IT and I’m very good at it. But. But leadership requires human qualities, vision, motivational skills, which have little to do with that depth. What is it that makes so many Indian CEOs so successful at it? I mean, there’s so many names that I could come up with.

Saul Ezra: See, basically, the Indians come from a very poor background, most of them. So, the concept is that you work hard and you succeed. And they envisage success flooding through hard work and concentration. And I don’t like to say it, but I feel that Indians themselves are quite clever. They’re clever people.

Minter Dial: Well, for sure. What I think is that you’ve got the cream of the cream that have had to fight so hard to get here. By definition, they are smart.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: Because they’re the cream that rose to the top.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: Yet the working hard, doing everything doesn’t necessarily rhyme with being empathic, being emotionally intelligent, being able to understand what motivates people. What is it about the Indian culture, in your mind, that favours, in my opinion, this type of.

Saul Ezra: Succeed.

Minter Dial: They want to succeed. They’ll do whatever it takes.

Saul Ezra: Do whatever it takes. They want to succeed. They come from a bad, poor background.

Minter Dial: Right. We just talked about success. They want success. What is success in your eyes?

Saul Ezra: It’s a variety of things. To bring up your children well, to see that they are happy. To see that your wife is maintained and looked after and brought to a standard. To. To live to a higher standard. To have a good life, basically. To mix education, culture, sport, entertainment and everything should be, not an excess, a higher standard.

Minter Dial: What do you mean by a higher standard?

Saul Ezra: Well, it depends where you come from. See, for me, a higher standard would be my living in Bombay. So, the house I live in here is of a higher standard.

Minter Dial: Right. Higher level. Higher level of living.

Saul Ezra: Right.

Minter Dial: You have been diagnosed with a terminal illness.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: When did that happen? Tell us about that.

Saul Ezra: I would say less than six months ago. Four. Five months ago. Four months ago.

Minter Dial: How did you receive that news and what did it make you think?

Saul Ezra: Well, you become inured. It is what it is and there’s no way I can change it. I can take the medication, I can try. But if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t.

Minter Dial: Happen in terms of the cure. But what does it do for the way you are approaching life right now?

Saul Ezra: Well, I try to sort all my little concepts, give it to my wife and my children and Hope that it continues. There’s very little you can do. This is what you have, and you’ve got to accept it.

Minter Dial: I’ve had several people on my podcast that are in a terminal phase, and I’ve interviewed a man who deals in hospice. And I put that as a context for this part, which is that oftentimes people lead their lives without thinking of death as a possibility, even much less a finality. But if you ask people, what would you do? How would you change your lives if you knew it was all going to come to an end? Well, most people all of a sudden say, well, I do a million things differently. They all of a sudden wake up to the fact that there’s finality. If you look back at your life, what sort of regret do you have? Any regrets? No.

Saul Ezra: No. Life was good. It was easy. We worked hard, we succeeded. We did what we had to achieve. Our children are brought up well, they’re all well settled, and basically I go happy.

Minter Dial: What is the thing you’re most proud about in your life, Saul?

Saul Ezra: What do you mean?

Minter Dial: What makes you the most pride, gives you the most pride in your life?

Saul Ezra: I am. My wife. She’s the sweetest, kindest, most gentle human being in the world who’s always there for me.

Minter Dial: That’s beautiful. And you’ve been married for 55 years.

Saul Ezra: 55 years.

Minter Dial: That’s a gorgeous thing. You’ve been married 55 years. It’s always a journey. I mean, I’ve only been married for 30 years. I know. It’s been a journey for me. It’s almost a double. When you got married, to what extent did you imagine living this type of life with Elizabeth, your wife?

Saul Ezra: I didn’t look ahead. I just lived.

Minter Dial: You were present for the present.

Saul Ezra: I tried my best and hoped to succeed.

Minter Dial: This might be impertinent, but was it an arranged marriage or. It was not. It was a love marriage. Absolutely right. And how was that viewed upon by your parents?

Saul Ezra: Remember, my wife, Elizabeth comes from the same community. My mum’s brother went to England to do education with her uncle.

Minter Dial: Oh, I see.

Saul Ezra: So, they were both national swimming champions. So, my uncle, my mum’s brother, represented India in the Helsinki Olympic Games and swimming. So, we come from a very physical.

Minter Dial: Side of the family and also quite knotted as in terms of. In terms of a community.

Saul Ezra: So, my uncle did his FRCS in London and her uncle did the MRCP.

Minter Dial: In London together and those. What is the MRCP?

Saul Ezra: Well, it’s a physical. It’s a doctor to be doctor.

Minter Dial: I see, I see. I see, Right, well, lovely. So, we’ve been talking a little bit about sports. We’re just mentioning swimming and Adrian, of course, and Daniel, great squash players. How much has sports played in your life?

Saul Ezra: Look, to be. To be honest, I. The moment Adrian became a national champion, he didn’t need me all the time because he was in America and he would come to India to play the nationals for a week and go back, which is tiring. Yes, but I was never there. I was in London. I remember in 1989 I left architecture and building construction and we built with my brother a very, very large warehouse in Hinden on the Broadway, which is about half an hour’s drive from here. And we built the most fabulous showroom which I designed as an architect. Over three floors of bathrooms, kitchens, tile.

Minter Dial: Everything, anything to do.

Saul Ezra: Now when we came to London, we realised that all tiles were sold by little shops from aboard. So, we decided to go in for cash and carry.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: So, the, the warehouse we built had a huge warehouse where we imported a large amount of tiles from Italy, Spain and Portugal. And the people were driving, load their cars and drive away with what they liked.

Minter Dial: So, it’s a little bit home decor before home decor became popular. We have these now, large home bases and all that kind of stuff.

Saul Ezra: But this was specific for tiles, marble, bathrooms, kitchens, etc.

Minter Dial: So, why did you leave architecture? Was there sort of. I’ve done it all.

Saul Ezra: My younger brother told me, why don’t you join me? You’re good at drawing, you have a good concept of design, why don’t you join me, and we build this building? So, we went to London, we liked Hendon, we built the building.

Minter Dial: I want to go back to sports because obviously you’ve got children or two kids that love their sports. What about for you? What did sports play in you, your life, for you.

Saul Ezra: Basically, as a kid I was a good sportsman, but I was not exceptional. I played cricket and the cricket season, I played hockey, the all-rounder, all round. I was never guided to become superb or exceptional.

Minter Dial: You weren’t the. The supreme jock of the school.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: But what did those activities, what did sports bring to you? How did it enrich your life even if you weren’t the best?

Saul Ezra: I don’t think it enriched my life anyway, except that it made me a very healthy person. I was very fit, I never put on weight, I was very quick runner, and it seemed to have served me till I got cancer.

Minter Dial: Right. Can’t avoid everything.

Saul Ezra: He can’t avoid everything.

Minter Dial: We mentioned peppers before, at least spices. Yes, what’s your favourite food to keep you healthy?

Saul Ezra: I don’t know. I have a cook in London or had she got cancer, poor thing, recently. She would make me lentils and vegetables and a chapati every morning. So, I would have that for many, many years. She was with us, living with us for 14 years.

Minter Dial: It sounds a little bit like what you’re saying, you know, the little piece of India absolutely starts off every morning with a proper Indian breakfast.

Saul Ezra: You hit the nail on the head.

Minter Dial: Well, so having Adrian in particular, that I know so well, playing at that highest level, you were apparently referred to as Nostradamus. Tell us about Saul Nostradamus, AKA because.

Saul Ezra: I said to everyone in the clubs that Adrian was going to be the next national champion.

Minter Dial: And this is because you have total lucidity. Right. So, but how did you know? What was it? I mean, you can have fatherly pride, but how do you know? Because apparently you are pretty outspoken about your forecasting of who was going to win.

Saul Ezra: Well, I did it for two reasons. One was to bolster Adrian, to make him feel that he is going to be the champion, next champion. And basically because I love the game and I love the people around it and we enjoyed the banter. We go to the clubs, we were all into clubs, so they’re very private clubs with very few people.

Minter Dial: Right. Well, squash is still a somewhat privileged sport.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: It’s not exactly accessible everywhere. Although I do remember playing in a squash court in one of the Bhagwans in Rajasthan. In the back, it was an open-air court in like marble, and I played a local Indian boy. He was barefoot, I was fully equipped, like I would be, and I got my arse handed to me. But in terms of sports, oftentimes there’s another sort of philosophy of life that says, is it better to focus on what you’re good at or improve what you’re bad at?

Saul Ezra: To me, I believe that if you are doing, studying or playing a sport, you concentrate on what you’re good at. Because the moment you become the best.

Minter Dial: Every door opens for you, even in the sport. So, for example, I’m playing squash, let’s say I’m very good at doing rails down the line, down the line, let’s say. But my cross court isn’t quite as good. Should I get better at my rails, or should I work on my cross court?

Saul Ezra: That’s up to you. But the way I see it is you concentrate on what you’re best at because you become better, and you become the best. And when you’re the best. The world is open to you.

Minter Dial: Alright, so you have told me that you supported Adrian to help boost him, but apparently as Nostradamus, you weren’t only deciding about Adrian.

Saul Ezra: You see, it was a lot of club banter. We enjoyed teasing each other. And I would say outrageous things just.

Minter Dial: To provoke, just to prove. Right.

Saul Ezra: So, there was a boy who was very friendly with me and he coined the term Nostradamus.

Minter Dial: I see.

Saul Ezra: And he puts it in the newspapers.

Minter Dial: And it became quite Mr. Ezra votes for. Then the bookies want to know who was that.

Saul Ezra: Right.

Minter Dial: When you look at somebody in terms of selecting them to work for you or selecting them to be the number one because you think that person is a great player, what qualities do you look for in somebody?

Saul Ezra: Basically, I would like. Are you talking squash in particular? Squash.

Minter Dial: But it could be, could be. Let’s start with that.

Saul Ezra: If you have no speed, if you’re not fast, super-fast, you’re going nowhere.

Minter Dial: Yeah.

Saul Ezra: So, I look at a person who’s fast, secondly, a person who is obsessed with his game. If you are not obsessed, you’re going nowhere because you will improve by the amount of hours you spend on the squash court. So, it’s very, very simple.

Minter Dial: And what about in work? When you’re looking at trying to hire somebody for your, one of your cabinets, your offices, what were the qualities that you looked for in employees?

Saul Ezra: Basically, we had many salesgirls working on the floor. All that we saw was someone who could speak fluently, who’s gentle looking, who was ready to help and knew what they were doing. It was not a very big deal because there were many, many such young girls and women who would fit the bill.

Minter Dial: In terms of the qualities of people. What I’m looking at here is not just the competency, but within the character, the attitude of people.

Saul Ezra: It’s very varied. You know, you can’t really put your finger on, on one person. Each person has something great about them, so you just have to accept it.

Minter Dial: So, in terms of the lessons learned for you in, let’s say, in business, what would be advice that you would give to people who, for example, want to be architects or be in business in general?

Saul Ezra: It’s, it’s, it’s so varied because architecture itself, you could be a designer based on design. You can be building housing for the people, for the common people, which is totally different. So, everything has its own place and you can’t put your finger on that particular space until you actually go and work there and you learn for yourself what you are Good at.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: And you train to become the best at what you’re good at.

Minter Dial: Right. Well, then I’m going to pull back on something you said, which was that at 16, you were told you were going to do this.

Saul Ezra: Yes.

Minter Dial: Looking back, isn’t that saying, well, you’re not allowed to try other things?

Saul Ezra: Absolutely. Absolutely. But it is part of life over there. You accept what your parents tell them.

Minter Dial: Right. Is that a good thing?

Saul Ezra: I’m not sure. I’m not sure. But it worked out. It worked out for me. I don’t know. It could go bad.

Minter Dial: Right. No. There’s no easy path. What is your experience or your feeling about imperfection?

Saul Ezra: I’m rather intolerant. I’m rather intolerant. I feel that everybody, every single person, has a future and all they have to do is to see the future and see where they’re going and try and correct any mistakes they make and just improve themselves because there’s so much there, life has so much to offer, and why would you just leave it out?

Minter Dial: Going back to your experience in architecture, two questions. The first is, what makes architecture meaningful to you as a person?

Saul Ezra: I think basically the love of beauty. For me, I would tell my wife what suits her, what doesn’t. I put together properties. I buy property in London, I redevelop them. I enjoy it. It’s my pleasure to see the beauty of what I’ve built.

Minter Dial: Is beauty objective?

Saul Ezra: To me? Yes. May not be too many people.

Minter Dial: It’s a funny way of expressing it because sort of it’s subjectively objective.

Saul Ezra: Yes. Yes, you’re right.

Minter Dial: The idea of beauty being objective would suggest that there’s one standard of an objective idea that everybody agrees with. That. No, nobody. Not everybody agrees with that for sure.

Saul Ezra: I. This is my objective. It may not be yours.

Minter Dial: What’s the most provocative thought that you’ve ever had?

Saul Ezra: I never thought about it.

Minter Dial: But you’ve been provocative a lot. You know, I am by nature provocative. Yeah. But to think of the. The summit of all your provocations is hard because you have so many.

Saul Ezra: I. I just feel that people should love rather than hate. There’s too much hate in this world.

Minter Dial: Why do you think that is?

Saul Ezra: I. I basically believe that religion is something that should die out. It is something that separates people for no reason. There’s not a single person who has seen God, heard God, felt God or spoke to God, and yet they kill in the name of God.

Minter Dial: Indeed. I would argue that religion also brings people together.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: Therefore, it serves. I’m not religious, but it does seem to serve a purpose that’s missing in today’s life because we don’t have much community.

Saul Ezra: You see, a religion that is based on love is beautiful so long as it is based on love and not hate. The moment the ingredient of hate enters into your society, then society is doomed.

Minter Dial: Do you like to read?

Saul Ezra: I love to read.

Minter Dial: What are some of the most powerful books you’ve ever read?

Saul Ezra: I don’t remember them, but I used to read a book a week.

Minter Dial: Yeah. There are no books that stand out.

Saul Ezra: Not really, no.

Minter Dial: Not even Ayn Rand? The Fountainhead?

Saul Ezra: Aye, of course.

Minter Dial: Ah.

Saul Ezra: As a young boy.

Minter Dial: And Rand was the Fountainhead. Howard Roark.

Saul Ezra: But I rejected it.

Minter Dial: Oh, you did? What did you reject?

Saul Ezra: Because I wanted to become a commercial architect. I wanted to make money. I wanted to become. Make big buildings, huge projects. And the Fountainhead was narrow.

Minter Dial: Yeah. In terms of your. The buildings you’ve done, which is the building that stands out for you in your memory? That this one was cool.

Saul Ezra: The first building I ever built.

Minter Dial: Wow. Why?

Saul Ezra: I don’t know. Because I really worked very hard on it and it was the first big job I ever got. Would you say allowed me to get married because I earned enough money.

Minter Dial: Oh, nice. Well, I was going to say sometimes it could have been a passion project.

Saul Ezra: All of them are passion projects. Basically, I changed the concept of the way buildings were built in Bombay. I came to England in 1971, and I loved the semi-detached houses and the way. The simplistic way England was built. And when I went back to India, part of Bombay had restricted the floor space index to half, so you could not build tall buildings because the atomic energy was nearby. So, I devised a concept of following English architecture. And instead of building ground and three upper buildings, I built ground and one upper houses. Detached, semi-detached houses. And it was. It was just accepted in total by the Indian public.

Minter Dial: Blessed. It was sort of a blessed idea.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely. You’re living in a house ground in one upper rather than a flat.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: And for the same price.

Minter Dial: Makes sense.

Saul Ezra: So, it became. It became. It made me into an icon in architecture.

Minter Dial: Nice.

Saul Ezra: Because I was the first person to conceive of this idea. And it happened because I came here.

Minter Dial: So, travel is good.

Saul Ezra: It’s wonderful. Absolutely.

Minter Dial: What has travel brought to you? Well, give me some ideas that travel helped you to understanding, as I said, coming here.

Saul Ezra: And also, what happened was my father had a pharmaceutical company. So, when he died, we took over with my uncle part of the pharmaceuticals in Bombay and we travelled. So, we ultimately introduced to England the hepatitis test.

Minter Dial: Hepatitis B or C or both. B, yeah.

Saul Ezra: So, there was no jaundice. Was a very endemic in. In Bombay at that time in India. So, we introduced from Baru’s welcome hepatest and we introduced it to England, to India.

Minter Dial: Oh, I see.

Saul Ezra: So, it was fun.

Minter Dial: Oh, in life there’s inevitably ups and downs, of course. How do you deal with the downs?

Saul Ezra: I just try and carry on, basically. I think after my first child, when Adrian was born, I felt a little weird because I had to look after child. I never experienced that before. So, for me, I became, I think, slightly depressed for about six months, but I got out of it and I just carried on.

Minter Dial: Makes me think of the. A child that has an older. A younger brother that comes around. No one’s looking, taking care of me. My wife is busy. But in today’s world, there’s a lot of talk of depression and mental health, especially in the west, in developed world. What do you have to say about that?

Saul Ezra: Well, I blame social media because basically people have to intermingle to have confidence in each other and to learn to love each other. By isolating yourself on the iPad and on your telephone and just listening to Tick Tock and things like that, you lose touch with people. And the moment you lose touch with people, all the fears come to the front. And depression is something which is a relation of isolism. And when you’re isolated on your social media, it’s very likely you can get depressed.

Minter Dial: It’s very. It’s obviously a little paradoxical because social media first of all has the word social in it and allows you to connect with everybody everywhere.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely.

Minter Dial: And yet we have depression or isolation. Solid. All right, so get off your social media and go meet people again.

Saul Ezra: You can’t do that. You know, it’s, it’s. It’s heads that win, tails you lose. You can’t, because the moment you do that, you are isolated from the rest of society.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: So, basically what you need is a balance.

Minter Dial: Balance between being social on media.

Saul Ezra: So, sport is the best form of balance.

Minter Dial: Nice. Sport is the best form of balance because you can use the apps to get to make the game, but then you’re out there sweating and you’re meeting in real.

Saul Ezra: Absolutely. And you communicate.

Minter Dial: I love that. So, looking at the twilight of your life here, you. What would you say is the most important lesson or a piece of enlightenment that you’ve learned in your life?

Saul Ezra: I think basically you just have to get on with life and be happy, and happiness is based on the people around you. And the more you make the people around you happy, the happier you are. There’s no way we can change certain things in life. You have to learn to accept it, and you have to learn to accept it with equanimity.

Minter Dial: There’s that expression which is, God, give me God or something. Give me the strength to. The intelligence to know when I can make a difference. And if I don’t make the difference, give me the courage to let it be.

Saul Ezra: Well, you said it. I can’t say it better.

Minter Dial: Well, it wasn’t me. It wasn’t I who said it in the first place. But what about legacy? What do you feel would be your legacy?

Saul Ezra: I feel that I’ve just done my duty and I’ve done it well. That’s it.

Minter Dial: In your children and your grandchildren, what type of messages would you like to leave them with?

Saul Ezra: Work hard, love your family, keep close.

Minter Dial: Together and play sport and eat well, stay healthy. In terms of your life, just last zone of question. You’ve seen a lot of change, 1941-2025. What are the biggest things that have changed? What do you think of that? This is a huge piece of change.

Saul Ezra: I don’t know. I really. Life has been a gradual change. I’ve never had any terrible happenings or any problems which would distract me from what I’m doing. So, it’s been very easy. Basically, I have nothing to complain about and I die happy.

Minter Dial: What about the future? What do you think about on the horizon? I want to start with you. I want to get going. Let’s dive in. What is the future hold? What do we need to do? What do we need to do to make the future better?

Saul Ezra: In which country?

Minter Dial: Well, let’s start with England.

Saul Ezra: England is. Is. Is doomed.

Minter Dial: Why is that?

Saul Ezra: Because of the Labour government and the very poor management of the Conservatives.

Minter Dial: Right, so the politicians are at fault?

Saul Ezra: Yes, of course, of course. There’s no question about it. You know, there’s left and there’s right. I. I can’t see why there should be any left or any right. All you need to do is to make people live happily in this country, not. Not to work in a manner by which you don’t work, and you expect other people to support you. Everybody has to share. And sharing makes you stronger, it doesn’t make you weaker. You do not say that I will help one section of society and screw the rest of them. That is stupid. You must embrace everyone and if I have an ability, enhance that ability. And what I achieve, you celebrate, not denigrate.

Minter Dial: Right. Celebrate others. Success.

Saul Ezra: Celebrate everyone’s success, whoever’s success successful. And encourage people to become successful because that is the future.

Minter Dial: Nice. What about national identity? We’ve talked a little bit about religion. We’ve talked about how you have a dual culture.

Saul Ezra: See, unfortunately, again, the politicians have been bringing in people without the concept of the national and even the way their culture thinks. And it’s very hard work after that.

Minter Dial: To get back to it.

Saul Ezra: I would say impossible.

Minter Dial: How important is it? I mean, because there are some schools of thought that talk about national identity as some sort of superficial construct.

Saul Ezra: Well, it is a superficial construction if you take it over 500 years. But 500 years is a long time.

Minter Dial: Right?

Saul Ezra: So, it depends how you look at superficial.

Minter Dial: 500 years of life. Yeah. Quite a long life. So, in terms of India’s national identity, do you feel that it is in a better place or it is in a better place?

Saul Ezra: You see, they are focused.

Minter Dial: That’s it. Being focused is key.

Saul Ezra: I don’t know about that. But they are focused on their religion and their culture.

Minter Dial: What is the silliest thing you’ve ever done?

Saul Ezra: You have to ask my wife. That’s good.

Minter Dial: How important is sense of humour in life?

Saul Ezra: Well, I don’t think I have a very large sense of humour, but I enjoy being funny. But now and again, not too often.

Minter Dial: What about the role of laughter? The role of laughter in life? Because, I mean, in India you’re famous for having the laughing sessions.

Saul Ezra: I’m basically a happy person because life is be happy.

Minter Dial: So, where does luck come into that?

Saul Ezra: Again? It’s a very, very, very sensitive question and a very difficult question. Luck plays an important part of the person’s life. But. But when a person goes through life, he must evaluate every single aspect of it and take advantage of his luck. If you see luck and you turn your back, then you can’t say that I had bad luck. It was your bad decisions, your lack of knowledge of where your opportunities lie. So, luck, of course, is definitely there, but you make a lot of your own luck.

Minter Dial: Another topic that is quite contemporary is resilience. What’s your observation with regard to the resiliency of today’s world? Looking specifically at your children and your grandchildren? What about how to be? Is resilience an important quality? And how do you become more resilient?

Saul Ezra: You are lost without resilience. Then you just drift. For me, resilience is based on education. Education, education, education. Learn because knowledge is powerful. Every single thing you learn, you learn that history repeats itself. You learn so many things and you Keep it within you, and you become more resilient with your knowledge.

Minter Dial: What do you think of. There’s a term, it’s called epigenetics, or generational influence. In other words, your ancestors.

Saul Ezra: I am very much. I believe, very much into that. See, basically what happens is that we pass on what we have, and that is our culture, our knowledge, our resilience, and every little thing in minute forms. But it is always pertinent. Always. And genetics plays a huge part in our lives. So, we are genetically engineered to help ourselves to do what we want to do. We may not accept it in total, but that little sliver is always there.

Minter Dial: All right, very last question. Has music been important to you at all?

Saul Ezra: No.

Minter Dial: No?

Saul Ezra: No.

Minter Dial: Why not?

Saul Ezra: I think I was a bit obsessive with architecture, with my building construction, with my building in London. And I never, never thought that it was important enough. Of course, when I was a young kid, we would do rock and roll and Elvis Presley, punk when I was young. But the moment I joined architecture, and I began to see that I had to succeed, so it became secondary.

Minter Dial: Yeah. So, you. You’re.

Saul Ezra: I. I miss that.

Minter Dial: You miss music? You miss music?

Saul Ezra: Yeah.

Minter Dial: Does music have a place for you right now? Not really. Not really.

Saul Ezra: My wife loves it, but.

Minter Dial: And does she like to dance?

Saul Ezra: Actually, I dance.

Minter Dial: You dance?

Saul Ezra: I dance. I was very, very good dancer.

Minter Dial: You like to dance as well?

Saul Ezra: Yes. I had My. One of my girlfriends was a. Was a professional dancer. I used to dance with her.

Minter Dial: Oh, wow. Well, therefore, I would argue, you had music in your life. To dance.

Saul Ezra: Yes, of course. As a kid.

Minter Dial: Right.

Saul Ezra: I remember. Till I was 21.

Minter Dial: Right. I see. Right. Well, listen, what last words would you like to close within our little chat here?

Saul Ezra: I think it’s been a pleasure living in London. I’ve enjoyed every moment over here. Things have been good. I love my wife. I love my children. I love the way we brought up our family. And I say goodbye with a smile.

Minter Dial: Beautiful thing. Saul, thank you for sharing your words. It’s been a true treat.

Saul Ezra: It’s a pleasure.