Minter Dialogue with Petra Velzeboer

In this episode, I sit down with Petra Velzeboer, a psychotherapist, mental health consultant and author of the new book, “Digital Wellbeing: Recharge Your Focus and Reboot Your Life.” I note that Petra was a prior guest on my show in 2023 with her last book, Begin With You! Here, we explore her journey from growing up in a religious cult to becoming a leading voice in workplace well-being. Petra shares insights on digital detoxes, the importance of self-awareness, and aligning well-being strategies with business objectives. We discuss the challenges of modern work culture, including always-on expectations and the need for authentic leadership. Petra offers practical advice for individuals and organizations to foster mental health, emphasizing the power of connection and service to others. Her personal experiences and professional expertise provide a unique perspective on navigating the complexities of digital well-being and finding fulfillment in today’s fast-paced world.

Please send me your questions — as an audio file if you’d like — to nminterdial@gmail.com. Otherwise, below, you’ll find the show notes and, of course, you are invited to comment. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to rate it here.

To connect with Petra Velzeboer:

• Check out Petra’s eponymous site here
• Find/buy Petra Velzeboer’s book, “Digital Wellbeing,” here
• Find/follow Petra Velzeboer on LinkedIn

Other mentions/sites:

• Lost Connections by Johann Hari here
• Joanne Moncrieff Chemically Imbalanced
• Suzanne O’Sullivan – The Age of Diagnosis

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on Megaphone or in iTunes. Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Flowsend.ai, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Petra Velzeboer. It’s lovely to have you back on. Last time we had a really interesting chat. I mean it really focused on your background which is exceptionally interesting and needs to be understood I think before we get into anything. So, go and visit the other podcast up at the show Note link to that. But let’s start with for those who don’t know you, who is Petra?

Petra Velzeboer: I mean always a loaded question. Thank you for having me back. So, I mean I guess it starts with the roles that I have which is I’ve written a couple books, I’m a keynote speaker, I run a mental health consultancy. So, helping organizations create mentally healthy cultures. I’m a parent of two, I reside in London.

Minter Dial: You’re a psychiatrist?

Petra Velzeboer: I’m a psychotherapist.

Minter Dial: Psychologist. Psychotherapist.

Petra Velzeboer: Psychotherapist and an executive coach. I have a background in youth mental health and you know my new books on digital well-being. So, I’ve got a whole bunch of immersion I guess in tech addiction and thinking about some of those things and then for people who haven’t seen the previous episode, I was born and raised in a religious cult. I’m 16 years sober and I guess have gone through my own sort of depression addiction, you know, rock bottom moments and learned a thing or two about how to, how to thrive and enjoy life. In fact yesterday I told someone with absolute truthfulness and I know I’m going to sound annoying to people who are not morning people but I said, you know, every day I wake up happy and you know, to the non-morning people there was an eye roll and a like that can’t be true. And it really is because I think I’ve learned the skill of happiness, you know And so, it’s a pretty cool place to be as far as who am I today?

Minter Dial: Love it. Well your other book of course is Begin with you. I feel like I want to start with this notion of happiness. There was a LinkedIn article that I was, I wanted to quote. I was going to talk about it a little later but you talk about it a lot. We have been conditioned to believe that we need a reason for joy, a motivation to feel gratitude grounds to be in a state of love which comes from Dr. Joe Dispenza. To what extent is this your view on this been colored by the fact that you went through significant hardship?

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, I mean I know what the opposite feels like. Right. And so, I know that how I look at the world is a choice. It’s a perspective, it’s a skill that I can develop that’s not to say that every single minute of every day is happy clappy. You know, I don’t think, I actually don’t think life is about happiness for me. I think the pathway is around fulfillment and meaning and you know, those are the conditions in my mind that create more opportunities for happiness, for contentment, for, for gratitude, for seeing the good in the world that we’re. We’re in and our experiences. So, I don’t think it’s all about happiness. But it’s interesting that, that these days my first thought, you know, 99% of the time is like what? It’s almost like the morning acts as a reset for me. So, if I feel like my mood dips or I’m exhausted or something the night before, I’m like, I just have this absolute confidence that when I go to sleep the next morning I’m going to see opportunity. And it does act just as a reset. And I really think I trained my brain to kind of react in that way.

Minter Dial: Well, it feels like then that your pre bed is really what the reset where it’s happening because obviously sleep is a, you know, brings great things to the body. It’s a soothing. Of course it can be nightmarish. But there’s, that’s where it starts because then all of a sudden in the morning you, you, you perk up and you’re refreshed and, and reset through the whole evening.

Petra Velzeboer: I’d like to say that that’s, that would, that sounds really perfect and like I’ve got a perfect formula, but it could actually look like this. I’m exhausted. I’ve done a keynote and, and I’m like, I’m just going to eat some chocolate because I’m So, like, I’m tired. Like I’m just going to, you know, have the dessert. I’m going to scroll a little bit on YouTube, you know, not the perfect healthy things for apparently a digital wellbeing expert. And you know, I might feel a little bit like groggy and like, oh God, I didn’t work out today or the certain things that weren’t quite perfect. So, it doesn’t perfectly. The sleep itself. I think I’m lucky that I usually get a solid seven hours where I’m a good sleeper. So, I do think there’s something internal that happens to help me sleep. But I don’t think it’s a perfect like starts the night before and I’ve meditated and I’ve read. You know, I’d like to say it was, but it isn’t.

Minter Dial: Well, I would actually like to Push back. I don’t think we’d even like to be perfect. I think even in the, the, the method of searching for well being, it’s to accept that we’re imperfect and, and to move along. And then the second piece, I want to swing back on that still, which is this notion of having gone through hardship because seeking happiness, I feel like it’s something that a lot of people are looking for and yet I would argue that they actually haven’t gone through a really rough time. They, they’re, they’re worried, as I like to say, about the pinky. This, my, my pinky. I broke it when I was, you know, 20, rugby match. Oh, big deal. You know, get over it. Real hardship allows you to have real perspective. And I’m just wondering to what extent this is something you can sort of talk about and have others understand without it being experienced.

Petra Velzeboer: I mean, I think you’re right when you, when you know what the opposite feels like there and you know, the struggle that it takes to get to a place of perspective or contentment. Right. I, I don’t want to do the work again of, you know, 10, 15 years ago of that rock bottom and building from there. So, I’m more likely to have the incentive that when it dips a little bit like, oh, a bit of sugar, a bit of whatever, that I’m going to like, do the things to bring me back quickly. Right? So, absolutely. I think you also have a weird, an interesting gratitude and you know about, you know, how life is at the moment, even the small things, because you know what the opposite feels like. But then at the same time, I’d hesitate to sort of, I don’t know, be a bit judgy about the people who haven’t been through as much or haven’t, you know, and maybe come across as a bit entitled or a bit, you know, complaining all the time. And you think, come on guys, are you serious right now? Right? Because you can’t compare pain in a way, right? And so, in your head, in your body, it feels huge regardless of whether we would compare it to others. And it’s tiny in comparison, right? And these days, since the pandemic, with geopolitical issues like all these things, like people feel like things are big, right? And so, great feel like it’s big because that’s going to give you perspective on like, do you want this to be your experience of your one precious life or do you want to do the work to shift perspective? Right. Sometimes less incentive. Why do So, many of us go through rock Bottoms. Even though we’ve read the books and the stories of other people, we should. We have parents who are like, I learned this. We don’t learn, do we?

Minter Dial: Don’t put your hand in the fire. Oh, really?

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, exactly. We’ve got to do it ourselves. So, whatever journey you’re on, I’m always like, what’s your starting point? And move from that place.

Minter Dial: All right, well, let’s. I just leveraging Dr. Joe Dispenza’s comment. Love that quote, which is an interesting article that you wrote in LinkedIn. How do you think that that translates for leaders? And how do they, can they recognize authentic engagement when you’re talking about happiness and the flippant element of ha ha, ha ha?

Petra Velzeboer: Well, it’s interesting because in the workplace there are these studies that a happier workforce work harder or better or are more productive. I’m not sure I buy that because I don’t think happiness is the goal. Right. It’s like, it’s contentment, it’s gratitude, fulfillment for me personally. And you know, when I was at my worst, I did blood work. It was a great distraction. It was something that I could focus obsessively on to distract from how I was feeling. So, I don’t think it’s a perfect equation of like, happier people do better work. I think troubled, traumatized people work their asses off and get done. Right. That’s not sustainable long term. And there’s loads of flaws to that in the big picture. So, as leaders, you said this word authenticity. Right. Really, it’s about open communication. It’s about discussing your own state of mind and the connection to how you work in a healthy way longer term. Right. So, I don’t. What, what do you think just about the happier people work better kind of argument?

Minter Dial: Well, I, I, I used to run a company called Redken, and when I took it over, one of the three values that they like to profess was, were fun. And I was like, no, I think that’s something we can end up having, but it shouldn’t be the thing we are.

Petra Velzeboer: It’s a result.

Minter Dial: Yeah. And it’s a, it’s a state of being that is momentary. And so, therefore, if it’s not sort of a deep-seated constant, then how can it be something we write on the wall? So, I, I resisted that whole notion of, of happy. And I, like, you tend to think that. And I sort of come at it from my rugby background, which is, you know, crushing tackles, playing in, in your shorts in the snow, getting mud up your nose. I mean, you know, and, and winning and losing with others, that is a form of contentment, that’s deep winning and losing. And it’s just that camaraderie, going to bat for your team, with your team, whatever that. And then hopefully with some project that is in lifting up. And I think that’s. There are two things which I feel. One is have a purpose to your project that is uplifting and define that without it being ridiculously sort of Mother Teresa-esque. And the second one is making sure you are able to deal with the downside, the bad elements of business and do that with some level of knowledge of self, knowledge of your team. And I think that is a more fulfilling journey. That’s how I go at it.

Petra Velzeboer: Well, and you know, when we think about mental health and the definitions there it is about community, connection and managing stresses. Right. Normal stresses of life. And to your point, I really think it’s the journey, right. So, when we can enjoy, recognize and feel the benefits of that team bonding or solving problems together or having each other’s back. Right. That is the richness that it is to be human. Because if we’re only focusing on winning, as you say, like the achievement destination, what happens in a consumer society, we get the thing and we’re like, okay, then what? It’s not connected to how we feel. So, a lot of what I talk about at the moment is community and connection is the point. Right. And that’s the thing we’re losing in a world where supposedly we’re more hyperconnected than ever before and yet we’ve lost the skill. We’re losing the ability to ask meaningful questions. I know this is what your books are on. Empathy, meaningful communication, all the things to truly feel like we’re part of something and moving together towards a goal.

Minter Dial: Yeah, well, the, the reality like you’re seeing with your hardship. For me, joy can only come around in the presence of sadness or at least as a, as a, an opposite of sadness.

Petra Velzeboer: The yin and yang. Yes.

Minter Dial: And just like we need to embrace the fact that we are mortal and, and that therefore gives us more life and, and ideas of putting off mortality and trying to create it. You know, think of it as a disease as opposed to a reality is for me life sucking out as a general. And I, I know that in your book there are two things. I mean, we’re going to get to them both. But one of them was this notion of, of the five things that five regrets of the people right before they die. And I want to get to that, but I Also wanted to go back to this connections idea. And one of, one of the authors you quote in the book is Johann Hari. One of my all-time favorite books is, is Lost Connections. And, and I wonder, because he’s a journalist as opposed to a psychotherapist and knowledge of SSRIs, you’re going to have a lot more understanding about that, both from both perspectives, but more from a medical association. How did you feel about his journey with how. I don’t know if you read Lost Connections, but you know, and, and because he, he went through all the medicalized versions and all of a sudden he said, whoa, snap. That’s actually not the solution. The solution is to get reconnected.

Petra Velzeboer: Well, I would always hesitate with anything that’s just like one solution as like a caveat for everyone because everyone’s different. But the. I just went to a Talk by a Dr. Joanna Moncrief, I believe her. Her book is I’ll send it to you So, you can put it to the show notes. But it’s looking at the research around antidepressants, for example, and this notion of being chemically imbalanced. I think that’s basically the title of her book, Chemically Imbalanced. And that there’s no evidence across the board that there’s ever such a thing as a chemical imbalance or that you can. That antidepressants are working in the way that we think them to boost serotonin. Right. Actually looking at serotonin and the links, it just seems very flawless, this whole notion. And antidepressants often, and I use the word carefully, often are simply numbing an emotional state, which often means we then will not do the work that it takes to make us feel better or we’ll have a placebo. So, in the research, you know, that she quotes, you know, there’s this placebo effect that may enable us to think, oh, maybe it’s possible to connect now. So, I actually think the medicalizing of and Johann Hari speaks specifically to depression and addiction. Right. Medicalizing probably normal reactions to the human experience, which is living more isolated, not in community. So, I absolutely rate Johann Hari’s journey and his approach. I don’t think anyone, even mine, is like the full picture. Right. So. So, there will be people who absolutely need some medical help in that way. But I actually think the way the world has been going society as far as medicalizing human emotion and needing to fix it. Right. To your point, we’re all going to die. Right. It’s important if you want to feel joy. Brene Brown talks About this, you’re going to be open to feeling sadness and hurt. If you’re going to take the risks with empathy and connection, you’re going to take the risks with pain and loss and sadness and suffering. Right. That is the range of human experience. And so, for me, it’s about learning to feel. There’s a book, permission to feel. Right. Which is just what are the pieces within us that we are suppressing or repressing or trying to fix. Especially in this well-being, influencer world where everyone is telling you in three steps you can feel happy and whatever all the time. And I don’t think that’s helping either. Right. So, the bottom line, I realize I’m on a soapbox now is how do, how do we, how do we. And of course, this, given my background, this is absolutely the theme of everything is how do we learn to think for ourselves? Right. And to, to look at the information around us and then weigh it up connected to our body and our needs and our emotional state. But then if we do that, it means we then take responsibility or we have to take responsibility to do something about it. We don’t want to do that. Many times it’s easier to say, oh, the doctor said this, or you know, this is the symptom that I need to manage, when actually it’s that taking the brave step to connect that is probably the antidote to a lot of suffering today.

Minter Dial: I, in, in the recent books that I read, the Age of Diagnosis, I don’t know if you come across that by Suzanne O’Sullivan?

Petra Velzeboer: I haven’t read that one.

Minter Dial: It’s a fascinating book. She talks a lot about this medicalizing. So, she’s a neuroscientist or neurologist. Sorry. And she talks about the, the medicalization and the pathologizing of So, many things.

Petra Velzeboer: Where.

Minter Dial: Healthy people become patients all of a sudden. And this idea of the chemical imbalance, she talks a lot about that. She’s like, how does it, how is it that some sort of layperson just comes in and says, well, this is what’s going on in my brain. She says, I’ve been only studying this for 30 years and I have no idea what’s going on in our brain. But you all think you, you’re just a journalist or a pundit.

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: You think you know everything. Wow. All right. So, I wanted to go back to digital well-being. I mean, there’s So, much in this book. It’s great book. I mean, really, I enjoyed it because you have deep thoughts. It’s. There’s philosophy of life as well. And of course, your background. But how was it for you writing this book? What was your experience of writing it?

Petra Velzeboer: You know, we teach what we must need to learn. And, you know, I think early in the book I talk about the. The. The time in my life with which I had these deadlines, right? And so, I break up with my partner of four years. Both of my kids move out. So, they’re young adults. And for the first time in my entire life, because I moved from communes to raising kids real young, to being married, to like, whatever, I sat with myself alone. And not in a contrived meditative, like, let me spend 10 minutes alone, but like, fucking. I was living alone, right? Alone. And, you know, and my heart shattered into a million pieces. And the pull of my phone for, like, pseudo connection, for numbing, for like, avoidance was So, strong during this time. And I’ve got deadlines to write a book around digital well, being hilarious, right? So, like, all of these things, I am Case study one, right? Ground zero is like, hard, right? And, you know, I came at it from an addiction lens with which originally my publisher was like, oh, I don’t know if everyone’s going to get that lens. Like, they might not relate to that language, but in my research, I really found that people did relate to it, from young kids straight through to the older generation. So, it was tricky. I think every book, you know, this is a piece of your soul. It’s a piece of where you are in your life at the moment you want to bring it to life through. Through stories, through research. It’s a small book, but it was a tough. It was a tough gig to get it done just given where I was in life. And to your point, you know, I was. It was what I refer to that phrase, the dark night of the soul. You know, it was one of those phases in life where I. Where. Where I wasn’t waking up happy, where I was waking up with this sort of internal dread of, like, what is the point of anything? Like, I realized that So, much of my purpose was tied up in helping my kids have more options than I did. And arguably that was now successful. They both had university options and travel, whatever. And I just thought, well, I could just quit my business and my life and my everything now. Like, why would I do this? So, I really needed to go through this phase of rediscovery. And I. And I did loads of reading that had nothing to do with digital. Well, being on phases of life which are healthy for us in the sense where it allows us to reset. And the way, you know, you’re in that dark night of the soul is the well being, practices and tools that used to work no longer work. That messes with your head, especially as a wellbeing professional. So, again, that was my state of mind when I was reading, writing this book and I’m actually proud that I completed it because I almost didn’t. Just because of where I was at in life a lot there I realized.

Minter Dial: You know, thanks for sharing. It’s, it’s good. In the end of the day in your book you talk about, for example, digital detoxes, these tools that we throw around. And I mean none of these tools by themselves work. You know, at least they’re not blanket wise sometimes some people that might work and using one or other meditative meditation, what’s called, you know, program meditation, guided meditation, things, yeah, they, they can help And so, many things and maybe even just a conversation with somebody. So, it’s is no blanket solution for it. But let’s start with digital detoxes. I mean I’ve always looked at other people doing them. I, I don’t do them. I, it’s not like I don’t know how to do them, I just don’t feel I need to do them. But how do you, what do you look at in your research?

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, So, like you said, everyone’s different. So, it’s, it’s not a one size fits all. Everything I do. I would encourage kind of an experimenting approach, right. To, to see what fits for you at what time in your life. So, have that compassion, that awareness. I know it sounds like very logical, but it is. You’re gathering data like how does my body feel, how does my mind feel? How are my relationships, what’s going on for me? Johann Hari in his book Stolen Focus talks about how digital detoxes do not work because they do not solve the systemic issue of living in an attention economy where everyone is competing for our attention. Billions of dollars are being spent on this, right. And so, he’s like, it’s like trying to solve pollution by wearing an oxygen mask one day a week. It’s like not going to do it right. And it’s valid and yet, and I write this in the book I found myself in, I went to Jordan and I went to the desert of Wadi Ram, Petra. That’s it. I had to visit Petra for obvious reasons and then found myself in the desert and my device just didn’t work. So, it was like an unplanned digital detox. Right. Sand Dunes, stars, all the things, right. Magical. And so, obviously I was in this great location and everything, but it was interesting to notice my nervous system, my breathing. And it took about, I’d say six to 12 hours. I was going to say four to six. I think it took longer than that. It was about 6 to 12 hours. So, like a full day for me to actually notice that I was breathing differently, you know, and that I was kind of like, oh, not realizing in our normalized world of kind of hyperactivity how much I was sort of at that sort of level. And so, in my opinion, with looking at the research and weighing it up with people around me, a digital detox is not the solution. But as an addict, it is a perfect opportunity to act as a reset. And in that reset it allows you space to reflect on your behavior and to set some intentions around your technology use. One of the definitions for digital well being is, is technology supporting your intentions. Right. And if, you know, we are doing this virtually, you know, I can do calls with my siblings all over the world. You know, we’re global citizens, you know, technology enables our intentions, but when it takes away, it distracts from your purpose. You’re doom scrolling. Your nervous system is getting worse. You’re comparing, you know, then technology is not helping your intentions. So, a digital detox can just act as that pause button. Just like a juice cleanse might reset your microbiome and help you think about your health differently. It’s not going to be the one size fits all forever, but it will give you that reset, set your intention and then with that, what are my boundaries? What do I need? How can I get back to a place where tech is enabling me and not draining me.

Minter Dial: It’s, it seems there are two things in what you’re saying. First is awareness of self.

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And the idea of are you aware of your breathing? I think a lot of us could do with more of that. The other day I was a friend of mine said Minter, just slow down your and breathe for a second. In fact, you know, she’s, you’re, you’re just on a, you’re on a motor, you’re just motoring your mouth as opposed to reflecting on the real moment. And the other one is aware of your intention. You can have like a specific intention to do this project, but what I’ve been trying to do is link it into a bigger intention or what am I about? So, there’s a sort of awareness of the ad hoc self and the other is the awareness of who you are as an Individual and who you want to be at a macro level. And I feel like that’s the, the missing intention. Because my observation is that we are struggling with a crisis of meaning in our lives and this, these digital devices fill that meaning because, oh, look, there’s somebody doing this. Oh, click, like, and share, you know, that it, it’s a superficial sense of fulfillment rather than some sort of deeper sense of meaningful fulfillment.

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, we, I mean, we are. I mean, I’m not sure what the question was there, but I absolutely agree.

Minter Dial: There was no question. It’s just in the, in the realm of talking about this intention.

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah.

Minter Dial: How do, how do you craft the right intention?

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, but I mean, I would, I would hesitate to use the word the right intention because it’s like, what intention do I want now? Right. Because of course there’s the massive philosophical questions and it depends where you’re at. Right. Where your self. This level is at. So, it might start with my intention for this side hustle that I want to build So, I can provide for my family and I, you know, it might be quite practical. Cool, right? For you and me, we’ve been doing this work for a little while. The intention, of course, is like, who do I want to be? How I always. My goal setting is always around, how do I want to feel? And at the end of this year, looking back, and I’ve got two marker points in my year, So, I’ve got my birthdays in the summer, So, it’s bang in the middle. And then we’ve got the end of the year. So, for me, again, I’m not like New Year’s resolutions, but I am like, those are two marker points in my life that allow for some reflection and intention setting. And I will imagine six months later looking back on those six months and imagine how I want to feel. So, it might be pride at something that I’ve done. It might be connection. So. So, I’m not very like hardcore goal setting, you know, I, that’s really how I set the intention. And then is technology supporting me to feel that way. And I realize this sounds like fluffy language. Right. But my, my emotional world is my experience of what’s going on. So, I can be working in a job that I find meaningful. But if my emotional world is stressed and overwhelmed and is pushing people away and is in a triggered state, my experience of that is not going to be great. Right. So, again, this is what works for me. What works for you is going to be different. But wherever you’re at, just move. Okay. What, What Feels right for my intention now, you know, and it’s going to evolve, allow it to, allow it to change because it, because, because you’re going to have more depth to it as you, as you move forward.

Minter Dial: Well, I guess when in the right intention there’s this feeling of, well, I intend to just waste time or I intend to just wallow in my doom.

Petra Velzeboer: Rarely is that people’s intention. And when people are doing that, that’s often a lack of self awareness and being in a victim state, which is blaming others for your state of mind rather than taking radical responsibility for your emotional state, no matter what is going on around you, which is a ninja skill at the moment when we’ve got the world and everybody freaking out. And so, I have this slide now. I did a keynote yesterday that just has the word optimism on it. And it’s the tendency to look for the good in a situation. And I close my keynote with this idea of optimism. And that optimism is a choice. And of course, because of my story, people realize that that’s not how I always was. Right. And moving from addiction and all the rest of it. But I had a question and somebody asked, she was quite junior within a law firm and she asked, you know, is this, she was basically asking, is this a skill that you can develop or is it toxic positive positivity? Nothing is done worse for the world than this phrasing around toxic positivity, I think, and I get it, like it’s, it’s people who are faking, you know.

Minter Dial: Joy, how you doing?

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, and never being always good. Yeah, well, yeah, I didn’t want to make it a culture thing, but yes, that is, that is how British people think of American people. But you, but you know what I mean? It’s like there is something that we can cultivate about our, our view of the world. But if you don’t believe that, well, you’re going to, you are going to sit in that wallowing state of like, this is just my life. And my intention is just to, you know, your intention might be to provide for your family or to go to sleep happy or to find a relationship or to buy a house. I don’t know. You know, these are the intentions people often have. Right. And that’s fine, you know, if you’re content with those things. Good on you.

Minter Dial: Exactly. For some that, that is the reality of life. I was reading a book about APIs or tech and it talked all about optionality optimization or optim. Yeah, Optimization and opportunity. Lots of ops. So, I suppose I could add that to Optimism, that’s where my mind went with when you talked about that. So, think about corporates. There’s a lot of talk about toxic leadership. Yeah, I mean it’s, that’s not new. I mean toxic leadership and toxicity has been around for a very long time. We now it just feels like we’re more aware of that and, and in, in efforts to improve the environments at work where people are, continue to be completely disengaged with work. I would say especially now we get these cries to come back to work and things aren’t getting any easier at work. So, we, we try to implement these new well being policies and yet they are often not as aligned with performance for the company. You know, go take a day off or, you know, doesn’t sound like we’re going to get more widgets sold. So, how do you, what sort of advice do you have for leaders who are trying to bring more well being into their environment? What policies might you sort of look at or rule out for helping improve?

Petra Velzeboer: Well, and you’ll know the policy is one step and then it’s what, how do you bring it to life? Right. What happens with this policy? Right, but the, the key factor to start with is are you, do you have separate agendas going on in your same business? Right. Or strategies? And what I mean by that is you’ve got your business objectives, profitability, whatever it might be, growth, whatever, right. And then you’ve got the fluffy stuff which is the well being people over here and they’ve got a well being strategy and it includes like initiatives and nice things and perks and benefits, whatever. And so, the first step is how are we aligning these strategies So, that well being is very much intrinsic to high performance. It’s not this add on because what happens then is like it’s when people are burnt out, stressed, overwhelmed by all the things, oh, now we need all these benefits and this support package. But it’s like, why are we not talking to each other in the same business and understanding that, well, wellness and good mental health are building blocks for peak performance, for consistent, sustainable peak performance. Right. If you look at athletes, right, they’re not doing the Olympics every year, right? They’re kind of spreading things out like this. They’re ensuring that at times and in the workplace you’re absolutely going to work overtime and hit deadlines. And we do that in our workplace. Right. But what happens after that? So, I’m always like, okay, great, we’re all pushing to a goal and we’ve got to hit this, this goal what’s your recovery plan afterwards? Recovery does not necessarily mean time off. It means team building, it means resourcing our physical health. It means reflecting or debriefing So, we can have closure on some of the stressful elements. Learnings, learnings, learning, dreaming into the future, looking out for each other So, that we can get that team bonding and morale back. It’s understanding that in a team, sometimes a person’s up and another person’s down and then it fluctuates and when we have each other’s back, that doesn’t matter because we trust that that flow is going to happen. So, for me, again, it’s just aligning policies, aligning strategies So, that they’re connected. And I say this to people and I show them how. And really it’s a mindset at the beginning of it because a leader just thinks, well that’s not my job, that’s we’ve hired someone for that. Like what?

Minter Dial: Right, I pay you.

Petra Velzeboer: And so, for me it’s like, how are leaders in the day to day running of the business kind of showing or modeling the way, proving how these things work in practice. Right. And so, yes, there’s always going to be toxic leadership, but it’s a continuum of just human behavior. Right. A really good leader can be really stressed going through a divorce, have a sick child and suddenly be restructured and have half the size of a team. They’re not always going to be the perfect leader, are they? Right. And so, but a great leader is going to be open and talk about that and acknowledge the difficulty, not kind of brush it under the carpet and then just go, here’s some incentives work harder. Right. And I think it’s a real shame to that. We outsource mental health out of the business. So, we do the high performance stuff here and then we’re like call this number in secret or go take some time off and then come back when you’re good. But actually human connection is knowing that sometimes there’s flux and sometimes people need more or different. Right. Depending on what’s going on. So, I want to see more mental health and well being in the business, which is as a team. We talk about it as a team, not just in secret, one to ones either because that way you create team accountability around mindset performance, physical health, mental health, like that to me is a mentally healthy culture.

Minter Dial: Well, the way you just talked about it, Petra, is what our first was very authentic. And yet the challenge for So, many bosses is because the executives who are leading modeling is they don’t know how to do it. We, you know, So, many old farts like myself were brought up with stiff upper lip and, and, and moving into that space, it’s almost like it can invite tears because if you start going down the path of emotions, whoop. You can floodgate out because you just don’t know how to control it. But yeah, that, that’s fascinating. Fascinating area. When you are trying to bring well being into your workplace, making it align with what you’re trying to achieve, it feels like communications is sort of the nuts and bolts of it all. And within that of course there’s the digital set of communications, the emails, the whatsapps and the profusion of ways that communicate. So, start with the overall in communication where you’re just talking about how you need to bring it in. But maybe there’s other things where as the leader you’re communicating what, what else do you need to communicate? But then specifically when it comes to digital, how do you need to adapt or improve the digital part of it? Because that’s also where the well being can also be burned out.

Petra Velzeboer: So, I mean there’s, there’s a lot there. I would always support an organization to think about their comm strategy when it comes to all these nice things that they want to do for business because sometimes you’re playing a part in overwhelming people. So, say you’ve got the culture team, you’ve got the leadership training guys, you’ve got the well being team, you’ve got diversity, inclusion, whatever. There might, you might have networks, you might have, you know, all these different things. And then everybody’s often competing for the same budgets internally and then often doing a separate comms email or whatever rollout to people and then they’re complaining that nobody engaged or less people engaged than they thought. What is going on in the world? And I’m like, why don’t you talk to each other and streamline your comms plan first of all and then also make sure things are fit for purpose for the world that you’re in and the people and how they’re experiencing it. It’s not just a strategy up here. It’s like what is your industry? What is needs to happen on the ground? How do we actually listen to these fancy surveys that you send out to people and then don’t necessarily do anything with. So, that’s one piece just in rolling out some of this stuff. But then absolutely, digital communication just opens up the whole debate around always on culture. What are working hours these days? You know, the debate around the French policy To shut off emails after hours and make it illegal. And where that stands with people who have autonomous, flexible working practices that might be different and value something different than 9 to 5 and the younger generation coming in, right? So, there’s always two sides. One, well, one is Johann Hari’s book around the systemic issue and what needs to change there. Because let’s be real, there’s something hugely, you know, we’ve got AI, we’ve got things that are only going to be moving at a faster pace, right? And interestingly, we’re kind of in the messy middle of that change, right? Because we’re like, AI will help us with X, Y and Z and help us be more efficient. And yet our meeting culture is ridiculous in many places, right? We’re in back to back meetings, we have to do the work afterwards. It’s not quite. We’re still stacking on practices rather than streamlining them. And that’s normal when you go through a massive, you know, workplace change or like the industrial revolution to the tech revolution, you know, these changes are going to take time to take, you know, actually help us and for us to get used to them. But communication styles, I mean, do organizations have a strategy around it? Are they actually reviewing it for efficiencies? Always a good thing to consider. And then we need individual responsibility too. No matter what your context is, which is around your boundaries, your intention is this, you know, is work hurting me physically, mentally. And you’ll know by I asked this question in the book, ask the three closest people in your life what they think your relationship to your device is like to technology is like, what would they say? If you’re not very self aware, listen to that feedback, you know what I mean? And so, if you’re not present with your five year old, if your relationship is on the rocks, if your health is plummeting, like these are signs, right? If you’re feeling depressed or anxious, that’s information, it’s not a chemical imbalance. It’s telling you like something’s not quite right here, right? And then I realized not everyone is in a position to radically change their life. No one changes it overnight either. But the questions of course are, what’s the, what are the small things in my control and how do I create accountability in my family, personal life, work life in order to have a community that we can help each other stay on track rather than all, you know, I write and I know this from my experience. Addiction hides in shame and secrecy. And what we’re doing with our digital worlds is hiding it. In shame and secrecy.

Minter Dial: I was wondering how much being a do gooder can be damaging for your well being. And there I’m thinking of the one who’s really thorough, the one who rereads three times the email before sending it because don’t want to offend, making sure that. Right. But you know, but also the, the I want to be good with the other person. If I’m truly empathic. Well, I, I better I shouldn’t use this word because that’ll trigger her because that’s a word that I know is bad for her. So, I have to think of a different word for that. I mean whether it’s perfectionist or overdoing the gooding of the do gooding. There’s, I think a lot of people are aware of So, many things that are, you know, bad for, for others. Forgetting the toxic leaders that are sort of straight out sociopaths and such. But there’s also this other group, the cadre of people that I feel are overwhelmed by trying to do right, to do well, to do good. And, and that ends up being just very heavy and not very performative as far as performance is concerned.

Petra Velzeboer: Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the people pleaser type. It’s maybe conscientious and you’ve always had a high standard. Certain industries have been very competitive. So, you want to keep your place. Right. And so, always be going above and beyond. So, there’s a variety of reasons. Right. And so, I guess from a psychotherapy perspective and my personal journey, I think the more you can understand your story and what has helped make you or shape you into who you are today, the more you realize which bits are just like, well this is just the way I am. And which bits are like habits that you have created over time in order to feel accepted, to belong, to feel respected, you know, all the need, the primary human needs that we grow up maybe lacking or wanting. Right. That’s what’s playing around in the workplace is all these people who have stories that are making them do things that actually have no bearing on what we, the identity we think we have. Right. Or the shoulds that we should live up to. And we were talking before we got online, you know, you lose someone close to you and suddenly you get some perspective and you’re like, oh, does this email matter in this way? Who cares? Right? Like what about nurturing a place of authenticity, connection, community? And then these little tactics will often come off the back of it as well. And sometimes doing that will make you make decisions to radically change your Life, you might leave the corporate world and I know I don’t. People don’t want me to say this out loud, but you’re allowed to reflect on this and decide how you evolve the next phase of your life. Right. Or how you interact with it differently. So, I have a lot to say on people pleasers and all of that. Like I want to know your story. I want to know why. I want to know, you know, what made you, who were you trying to please when you, when you learned the skill of being a helper. But then just. I know I could talk all day.

Minter Dial: But the flip side, no, I love it. That’s why I like having you on Petra. It’s good, great energy and I know you. I knew you would be strong in this.

Petra Velzeboer: The flip side though, when you say do good. Giving back is one of the five ways to. Well, being. One of the first things I did when I got sober was I started volunteering in a youth club. Service is one of the biggest premises of Alcoholics Anonymous and the recovery groups. Right. And there’s something in your brain that happens when you’re giving to someone else. You get a break from your own head. You get a break from thinking about yourself. Right. And so, this can be a beautiful thing. And I often challenge people who are feeling depressed to Johann Hari’s point around connection and community to look at your lifestyle and look if you are becoming stuck in such a self absorbed place. Addiction. I got some debate about this on LinkedIn when I said it, but I was speaking personally. Addiction is a selfish disease. So, are many other mental illnesses. And I don’t mean that’s a judgment that you’re a selfish person. But I’m speaking for myself. You get So, absorbed with your own head and like this, that and the other that you forget that like you could just turn the volume off by being in connection. And for me volunteering, and I did it recently when I had, when I was writing the book and I was in my more recent Dark Night of the Soul, I found a place to volunteer. Like I just know that that’s the best medicine more than any medication for me is to get out of my head, be with people, often people that are less fortunate. But it almost doesn’t matter what I’m doing right. So, I just want to like, just if there’s a judgment around doing good or putting yourself out there, do think about that as far as your well.

Minter Dial: Being, strategy or support outside of just the comms pie.

Petra Velzeboer: I love that.

Minter Dial: I mean being of service, it feels like it’s something that many people don’t have time for because. Right. Because you know, I’m doing other stuff that’s far more, you know, for me as opposed to being of service to others.

Petra Velzeboer: But it doesn’t have to be formal. Literally I can go get order coffee and have a three minute chat with the barista who’s, who’s offered me coffee and it gets me out of my head. That person smiles and goes, oh, someone saw my name or asked me where I was from. Cool. Right. And in London that’s less likely to happen than in certain places in the U.S. right. So, there’s these little practices that you can just in the small ways in your circle of influence, your team, your kids, your partner. Like it doesn’t have to be, oh I now have to do half a day a week. Right. Find the things that light you up. Right. And if you’re in a stuck place, there’s nothing quite like being there for others. That’s not the same as answering your boss in the middle of the night because they said to you and that’s a good thing. No, there’s a line.

Minter Dial: Amen. Find your boundaries. You talk about setting boundaries. So, there’s many, many other things we could have talked about Petra. And as shame as that is, what time is a real resource. I really appreciate your energy, love reading your book, your books. Now how can people track you down? Hire you what, what? Who do you want to have come hire you and get your book?

Petra Velzeboer: Well, everyone can get my book. Find me on LinkedIn. That’s probably the place that I post the most stuff around workplace well being. I answer all my messages So, if you want to reach out, go there. And then my website’s just my name petra velzabour.com and all the services to organizations, keynotes, everything’s there.

Minter Dial: Fabulous. Well I look forward to seeing you in real sometime soon. Petra, lovely having you on. Thanks again for sharing your energy, your stories and your books. Digital well being and begin with you.

Petra Velzeboer: Thanks So, much.