Minter Dialogue with Sarah Lynn Thomas

Sarah Lynn Thomas is the co-CEO of Behold Retreats and joined me from Portugal, having spent the last several weeks guiding plant medicine retreats across three continents. Although based largely in Costa Rica, Behold Retreats hosts sessions in Costa Rica, Mexico, and Portugal—precisely because these locales have a more supportive legal landscape for working with powerful natural psychedelics such as ayahuasca, bufo, and psilocybin.

Our lively exchange journeys through Sarah Lynn Thomas’ impressive path, from 70-hour weeks in corporate finance and a stint in crypto to finding meaning and leadership in the transformative (and sometimes ineffable) world of plant medicine. We dig into what truly distinguishes Behold from the growing host of wellness retreats: a commitment to sustainability, a hands-on approach to integration, and the deep belief that these medicines can help people heal and expand—when approached with intention and care.

We explored not just the difference between plant-based and synthetic psychedelics, but the bigger thematic contrast between Western medicine’s approach to trauma and the holistic, often spiritual frame of ‘Southern medicine.’ Sarah Lynn Thomas was transparent about the difficulties and beauty of translating deeply personal, often mystical experiences into outcomes that can be shared with sceptical family members or colleagues. I particularly appreciated her candour about the challenge—and necessity—of vulnerability in leadership and the importance of attracting the right guests: those who are mentally and emotionally ready for the intensity of this work.

Key Points:

• Holistic Healing and Integration: Unlike many Western approaches that focus on acute trauma or physical symptoms, Behold Retreats is dedicated to a holistic model that combines traditional ceremonial practices with thorough integration and wellness support. This ensures guests leave not just transformed, but equipped to sustain change in their everyday lives.
• Legal Landscape and Integrity: The retreat operates only in jurisdictions where plant medicine work is permitted, maintaining rigorous ethical boundaries. This integrity extends to guest admission as well: prospective participants must pass medical and psychological screenings to ensure both their safety and the group’s well-being.
• Vulnerability as a Leadership Asset: Sarah Lynn Thomas shares powerfully how her own journey—from corporate rigidity to leading a diverse, supportive team—has meant dismantling old ideas about strength. By embracing vulnerability and mutual support, she’s cultivated both personal resilience and a thriving organisational culture.

To connect with Sarah Lynn Thomas:

• Check out Behold Retreats here
• Find/follow Behold Retreats on Instagram

Other mentions/sites:

• “How to Change Your Mind,” by Michael Pollan here (via Amazon)
• “Avatar Trap,” by Minter Dialogue (forthcoming) here
• “Band of Brothers” (TV series by HBO) here
• Daniel Carcillo, former NHL player and psychedelic advocate here
• Jordan Peterson, psychologist and commentary on neuro imbalances here

Further resources for the Minter Dialogue podcast:

Meanwhile, you can find my other interviews on the Minter Dialogue Show in this podcast tab, on my Youtube Channel, on Megaphone or via Apple Podcasts. If you like the show, please go over to rate this podcast via RateThisPodcast! And for the francophones reading this, if you want to get more podcasts, you can also find my radio show en français over at: MinterDial.fr, on MegaphoneFR or in iTunes. And if you’ve ever come across padel, please check out my Joy of Padel podcast, too!

Music credit: The jingle at the beginning of the show is courtesy of my friend, Pierre Journel, author of the Guitar Channel. And, the new sign-off music is “A Convinced Man,” a song I co-wrote and recorded with Stephanie Singer back in the late 1980s (please excuse the quality of the sound!).

Transcription courtesy of Castmagic.io, an AI full-service for podcasters

Minter Dial: Hola, Sarah. Great to have you on the show. You’re piped in, as I understand it, in Costa Rica. I think you might even be my first guest from Costa Rica, even though you’re not Costa Rican, per se. But anyway, in your own words, Sarah Lynn Thomas, who are you?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Thank you so much for having me on the show. I am in Costa Rica the majority of my time. However, about a week and a half ago, I left Costa Rica. We had a retreat in Mexico, and then right now there is a women’s retreat in Costa Rica. However, right after Mexico, I had to fly to Portugal. We have a retreat that starts on Sunday. And so, we had three retreats, three countries in the last three weeks. We have a beautiful female team in Costa Rica leading the women through that. And I’m here in Portugal,

Minter Dial: in which case we switch languages. So, what. What’s interesting about what you just said is that there’s Costa Rica, there’s Mexico, Portugal, and let’s go to the heart of what you do, Sarah, which is these Behold retreats. What, what are, what are, what is Behold? Why Behold. Behold, there was light.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, exactly. You are Beholden. Behold, you have found the light. So, our retreats, we do retreats with plant medicine. And so, the majority of our retreats are ayahuasca. We also offer bufo and psilocybin. And these are powerful plant medicines that each of the ceremonies are traditional and strong. And then in between ceremonies, what Behold specifically does that makes us different is we really hold each individual through the process. We have small retreats. And so, as you can imagine, you go through a powerful experience. Perhaps your nervous system is jarred. And so, we spend the next day integrating, processing, getting our nervous system back in place, whether that’s in nature or staring at a beautiful view or swimming in a pool or massages, talking, not talking, all of the things. And so, that’s how we do strong tradition with some of our comforts that we need to get back centered to go into ceremony again.

Minter Dial: Love it. So, so in the first question I was thinking about, maybe I should qualify. You mentioned you really use plants, which to say you don’t use chemicals as in lysergic or LSD, you’re typically more focused on the plants and there’s such a history of plants. So, how important is that component to it? I mean, in the end of the day, is it really just feeling like this is natural or is it really tapping into the history of the plants?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: A couple things. And so, I want to frame this answer using My own background, which is a Western framework. I have a western mind. I come from a western background. And so, for a western question to answer with the western, it would. Somebody may say all of these components, ayahuasca, psilocybin, bufo, this is what the ingredients are, this is what parts of the brain they interact with. This is the common and the common characteristics that may come up during a ceremony. However, I wouldn’t be doing justice to. We’re not doing western medicine, we’re doing southern medicine. And I believe through my own experience and education and wisdom from all of our shamans and medicine men and medicine women that it is also work more than just a psychedelic experience. It that would mean, and some people don’t resonate with this and that’s okay, that we are doing emotional, mental and spiritual, spiritual work. And so, western framework as I know it has an incredible ability for acute trauma. If I get in a car wreck, I want a, I want a surgeon Eastern medicine that works holistically. So, western medicine has kind of split the body apart. You go to an eye doctor, you go to a stomach doctor, you go to a foot doctor. Eastern medicine looks more holistically and southern medicine works for core trauma or even the core for expansion. And then they work within spirituality. And so, when some people have a hard time with the word spirituality, I say at least think of your own spirit, the, the Sarah that was here before and after and that will continue because I also had a hard time with spirituality. I also had a hard time with this framework. But I wouldn’t do justice for all of the people and medicine teams that I work with if I didn’t mention that component. So, as far as natural and not natural, I am a component of anything that works and is beautiful and has the, has the directive of medicines, not drugs. And so, it’s. If it’s addictive to me that’s a drug even if somebody prescribed it to you, if it can help you heal or help you expand and depending on your intention, it’s a medicine. And sometimes medicines can be drugs depending on how we use them and their intention. But I don’t have anything against chemical compounds. Bufo for example, at Behold we serve the natural Bufo 5 MeO DMT. I also am a proponent for synthetic aesthetic. Even though we don’t serve it, there’s probably not enough toads in the world for everyone who’s interested in what’s becoming a popular experience to go receive the natural medicine. Also at Behold with our sister organizations, we are a huge proponent of sustainability. And so, we have planted a thousand ayahuasca vines. Everyone that comes to my home that lives in Costa Rica lives leaves with a vine or shukrona bush. And so, we do focus on sustainability. So, that was a long answer to say. I’m nothing against unnatural. I think many people have had soft, even strong awakenings in the middle of a concert under a beautiful chemical that all of a sudden they started questioning their lives and making huge changes. And so, I’m a proponent for anything that helps people heal and expand. At Behold, specifically, we do natural plant medicines. And even the word plant medicine is interesting. It kind of is encompassing ayahuasca as a plant. Psilocybin is a fungi and bufo is a toad. So, it just is all called plant medicine. Even though it’s fungi medicine, animal medicine

Minter Dial: and plant medicine, There are a number of things. One of the areas that most people who are listening to this, because I’m going to guess that most people are listening to this, are not necessarily psychonauts. And legality is going to be another key question because having specific things which you serve in specific countries where it’s not illegal or it is legal. I mean, there was a point where Jerry Garcia, my fave, he said, well, LSD is legal. This is back in 1965. And the, the, the interviewer said, you mean it’s legal? No. Well, it’s not illegal yet.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial: What, to what extent is the legal framework also going to drive what you use or, or do you just, you know, back to, of sticking to what is, you know, plant?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. So, the reason that we are in these three countries, Costa Rica, Mexico and Portugal, is because of that exact answer. These are the countries in which we can work in the United States. I’m so happy to know that some areas psilocybin is legal. We’ve heard a lot of talks about ibogaine. I’m thrilled that, that these medicines are coming into the United States. But as of right now, our work will remain in the countries in which we can work them. I love that mentioned the distinction between legal and illegal. And then the gray area, there was a time where if somebody would have said, do you think, do you think ayahuasca should be legal in. And then name a country. And my first answer would have been, yes, it should be legal everywhere. Then I also learned more about the difference between illegal and legal. And so, I’ll use a non plant medicine example. If somebody has a restaurant that is legal, and because it’s legal, the law gets to tell you how to run your restaurants. And so, you have to have all of your employees have to have certain certificates, there’s going to be inspections, all of the things. And so, those are good things. I like to know that the restaurants I go to, I won’t get sick eating their food. That also means mom and pop little stands won’t be able to serve food legally. And so, while it’s in the gray area, that means our friends that can’t afford to pass through government systems, if a government ever said it’s legal, legal now. And now you have to have a western doctor to make sure that you’re doing everything okay. A lot of really great people wouldn’t be able to serve ayahuasca. This is also why I think organizations that have the ability to represent, to band together in an alliance to say, how can we work to protect really great medicine people to continue their work with the changing times.

Minter Dial: So, in, in the cases where it’s legal or not illegal, is there also a containment as to what you’re allowed to do it for? As I, as I see it, the literature and the research seems to be zeroing in on four pathologies, although there are many more. And so, you can end up hearing about camps or retreats in the Netherlands, Colorado, where they’re doing it for ptsd, they’re doing it for addiction. So, specific pathologies are allowed. To what extent are in Costa Rica or Mexico and Portugal, are there, let’s say, containment factors or is it sort of all is allowed?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, that hasn’t come up yet in these three countries. Any containment factors? Yeah, and so we have people coming for all types of reasons. A good portion, more than half come for healing. And so, that could be the component of ptsd, sexual trauma as an adolescent or teenager, even in adult life, it could be common, just blockages that we have from how we were raised and how do we unblock them. And then the other side is people that come for expansion. So, people that feel like they are right on an edge and they’re ready to leap and make sure that they’re leaping upwards. And so, those are the two areas. And we have found when people come together with a common, A common agent, common intention, then the retreats go deeper. And so, for example, the women’s retreat that we’re having right now, people that do come together, for example, if they were in the military, that is a bonding in a. And a deep expression that is really beneficial.

Minter Dial: I want to get back to that in a moment because I’ve certainly had many different people speaking about psychedelics on my pod, including those who have been in the military. So, ptsd, so Band of brothers and part of that. And then. Or rugby players who’ve had other concussions or hockey players. Daniel Carcillo, Don Armand, another one to talk about the sort of the team effect. I want to get to women’s a little bit later, but let’s just circle back Sarah, to a little bit to your journey because I think that’s awfully interesting. You and I have a past in working in corporate and the corporate world is a certain path, but you decided to take up a different path once from working from a position of comfort, you know, AKA AKA comfort. Tell us about your journey to getting to start up your Behold retreats and moving to Costa Rica.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, so I, I’ll even rewind a little bit farther just to do the beginning of this 30 years ago is the first time I took a psychedelic. Somebody explained to me that there is this little mushroom that if you eat it, the world turns into a rainbow. And I said that sounds amazing. I was in my teenage years, very lucky that I had an experience like that so young, with no fear and going into it. And I continued that I wouldn’t have called that a practice. It was for curiosity and fun. And of course I didn’t know it at the time, but looking back, it helped develop the way in which I think, the way in which I’m curious, the way in which I ask questions and am a skeptic, but not in a negative mindset, a question everything but towards positivity. And then when I went into the corporate world, I stopped. I stopped. I worked 70 hours a week. I was in finance, financial sales, financial marketing, even crypto trading for a period of time right before I moved to Costa Rica. That was my last financial run before coming to Costa Rica. And so, again, looking back versus at the time are two different. Two different remembrances or stories. I came to Costa Rica because I thought I just want something different. I lived in Los Angeles and I love Los Angeles. It’s a beautiful city. I also love to travel and I thought I want a challenge, I want to move to a Spanish speaking country. Coming into this field wasn’t even a thought. It was just do something different, just lead a life that is different. And so, I moved here for that purpose. I was still working online and I just remained open. I was just kind of calling out to the universe. Whatever is different, start sending my way. And it did. And throughout that process I went back to my personal practice with plant medicine. And then I got connected with an incredible human being, an incredible organization that he was building, and we started on this path together. Looking back, I think that that spirit I talked about earlier, the spirit of Sarah, was pulling me. My subconscious. If spirit doesn’t land well, my subconscious, my heart was saying, this isn’t the life you want to lead. I was very happy I did it for the period of time that I did. I wouldn’t have been able to move to Costa Rica without the. The financial work that I did. But looking backwards, I think it was my soul, my spirit saying, this isn’t your path. And so, it just pulled me and I just. I kept walking and let it direct me.

Minter Dial: I love it. I have a little backstory in my mind thinking that crypto feels like a different path as well. To what extent was moving from corporate finance, you know, corporate financial, typical positions, to crypto could have been a stepping stone for what you went to.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, I also feel like they’re very different, but they have a commonality of sovereignty. And so, I think while I didn’t know that word at the time, or I wasn’t using it the way in which I do now, but to be a sovereign individual, meaning that something outside of me cannot have control or directly affect my life. And so, when we think of the traditional sovereignties, we think of land. Own your own land so nobody can take it. Have a house on it, water, have clean water, and have your own water so that nobody can turn your water off. We see that in some wars where one. One organization or religion or group is shutting off the water in towns. And so, land, water, energy, if you can have your own energy as well, food and healthy food and clean food and data is one that I didn’t understand for a very long time. Have sovereignty over your data. And I still, I’m not saying that I do. I think everything I do is out there and then sovereignty over our consciousness. And so, that is the work that we do with Behold is the sovereignty of our consciousness. Why do I do the things that I do? Why Both positive and neutral and negative like patterns that I want to let go of, Whether that’s anger or sadness or anxiety or choosing a certain thing over and over again. Why do I do that? And how do I consciously shift? How can I start being more conscious, more aware of who I am? And so, that was a very roundabout to get back to Bitcoin. Cryptocurrency is also a type of sovereignty. You have more sovereign abilities to receive and spend your money and so that’s one of the reasons I got into crypto. It was also kind of like something led me. The first time I heard the word ayahuasca, I had no clue what it was, but it just kind of stuck there, stayed there. And then the first time I heard bitcoin, I was at a networking event and I tried to ask questions about it and I wasn’t getting answers. And so, I went home, I googled bitcoin and then that brought me to blockchain and I was hooked. I take my financial advice mostly from my dad and my uncle and one of the advice they gave me is don’t invest in anything you can’t understand. And so, as I started reading about this, I’m like, you may never fully understand this. And so, I just did it the next day. I started investing the next day. When only twice in my life have I gone against my, my dad and my uncle’s investment advice, but that was one of them.

Minter Dial: So, speaking of dad, to what extent did you, was that an interesting conversation to say, dad, I’m, I’m, I’m in Costa Rica. I’m moving to Costa Rica, dad, I’m starting a, Behold retreat with ayahuasca. Was that, I mean, I mean I, I, it’s sort of like coming out at some level in, in certain circles it is. What was that like for you in, with regard to your close friends and, and family?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. Thank you for asking. No one’s ever asked me this question before. So, even on retreat, as somebody goes through this experience, as many of them are going to go home to people that either don’t know where they went or do not understand what or why they did this. And a lot of them get stuck on how am I going to explain something to somebody that has many definitions of ineffable, the unexplainable, especially if somebody else has never done it, it’s super hard to talk about these experiences un, somebody can relate to them in some way. Otherwise openly, you sound crazy. Unless somebody. Right.

Minter Dial: So, I’m one with the universe.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, I’m one with the universe. I am you and you are me. So, what we teach on retreat and what, how I approach this with my dad is to start with the outcome. And so, one, you don’t have to tell people what you did and say you’re in the office and they just see that you have more energy that you normally have, that your face isn’t as harsh as it used to look because you’re more relaxed, maybe you have less Anxiety, and maybe you’re kinder, you can still be focused, you can still have energy, and maybe you’re a little kinder. All of these things, you have more ideas. And then somebody may say, hey, what did you do? And so, since they see the end result, it’s easier to tell them the process. If you start with the process and they don’t see the end result, they’re. That process won’t make sense to them. So, for my dad, this is a longer story, but I’m going to put it into short bits. I have some nerve damage in my right arm that has caused me a whole lot of pain since I was 13 years old, including some atrophy in my right hand. I used to be incredibly good at softball, would have gotten a scholarship to go to college. And I slowly just got worse and worse. And so, my dad took me to a whole lot of hospitals. We went to the Mayo Clinic to try to find out what was wrong with my. With my hand. And just kind of resigned to this is how it’s going to be for life. A lot of pain. About once or twice a week, it would feel like somebody was plucking my tendons off of my bones. Somebody was like stabbing my arm or like digging into my flesh for maybe an hour, once or twice a week. And so, I just, I started a meditation that I would move forward and, you know, this is just a part of my life. And about twice a year, my dad would say, how is your hand? How is your arm? And for a two decades, the answer was always, it’s the same, it’s the same. Which means it’s not worse, but it wasn’t better. It’s still causing me pain. I didn’t lose any more muscle. And then after a strong plant medicine journey, a few months after is about the time where my dad goes, how is your hand? And I got to say, it doesn’t hurt anymore. And he just goes, what do you mean it doesn’t hurt anymore? And then I told him. And then, you know, he’s in that conversation and we’re about to get off, and I say, like, don’t go Google this. And then we hang up. Ten minutes later, he calls me back and he was like, was there a doctor there? And I was like, no, I was very safe. And then he goes, I’m really happy to hear about your hand. And so, because of that outcome, he would have accepted the route. And he did. And the route didn’t involve painkillers or opioids or anything like that. It Was one night, a very strong, difficult night, but one night and I’m pain free.

Minter Dial: Well, there are many things that are remarkable about that and connect tissues, if you will, or connect dots with other individuals like Daniel Carcillo, who was an NHL National Hockey League ice hockey enforcer and played in many, many games as a, you know, fighter on the, on the ice. And, and, and he too had lots of damage, went through the process, and all the damage is gone. When you talked at the very beginning about east, west and Southern medicine, I was talking to my acupuncturist recently. It’s amazing how much of western medicine is about fixing the symptom rather than healing the damage. So, you get a painkiller that gets the pain away, but it doesn’t actually fix the issue. And with regard to so many of the people you are coming down for retreat, typically I have to imagine they’re coming with a problem, otherwise, you know, they’re looking for an outcome like, I need to fix this problem. And I was, I was just listening to Jordan Peterson who talked about how when he was a child, he also had a, some sort of neuro imbalance. It created pain. And, and it feels like these types of things are beyond Western medicine because who knows what the brain’s all about. And I’m not going to suggest, I think that the Southern medicine actually knows what the brain is all about from a biochemical standpoint. But there is something amazing that happens. How do you describe then how your hands, your hand pain went away?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, I appreciate that you already started putting words to this. I have a Western mind. And so, I don’t know how to describe that. I know that. And it wasn’t even my intention to work on my hands or my arm because it was something that I had already accepted as a part of life. I had a meditation that I would use. It was still painful, but at least would bring me into a loving, compassionate space. And so, I don’t actually know how this medicine made that pain go away. I don’t know what’s interesting about how, for example, ayahuasca works, works in different ways. And so, sometimes we know exactly what is being worked on. So, we will go through a, an experience from our past. And that doesn’t have to be traumatic. I’m just saying an experience from our past that left an impression on me today. That is a reason I show up in a certain way. I can give a specific example if, if you would like, and then it’ll say, and you can change if you want. Now you know that you do this now, you know why tomorrow, why don’t you do something different? And then sometimes we don’t know what is being worked on. And so, I’ll have a very powerful experience and ceremony. And I don’t specifically know what was unblocked, what was maneuvered, what energy was going through. And then I feel amazing and I don’t know what it is. And there’s also a blessing in that some people that come because they had a traumatic event, they’re afraid that they’re going to have to relive that event. And sometimes we do and sometimes we don’t. And there’s a beauty in both. Because we’re human, we would rather be pulled through the mud and feel terrible to know exactly what it is than leave going, I don’t know what that was. And then a month later go, oh, I feel great. We want to know right then. But there’s a beauty in not knowing. There’s a beauty in just going through. It’s like with western medicine. I don’t know what they’re doing surgically, but I could look it up and my mind could understand. Maybe not all of it, but yeah, it’s a. It’s a beautiful medicine and powerful. And I don’t yet have all the words to describe how it works.

Minter Dial: You know, to say there’s a beauty in the unknown, I think that is a gorgeous thing to live without uncertainty. And there are various ways of looking at time. And I. I enjoy exploring notions of time. So, there’s a past which comes with baggage, experiences that you’ve had more or less remembered. There’s being present in the moment, meditate, breathe, be here. And then there’s the projection of what I want to do for the future. How does Behold look at time in this regard?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: So, if we were fully present and be here now, human beings, that trauma in the past wouldn’t be trauma right now. And so, to me, plant medicine is a tool that can help us, but it is not the only way, nor the only the only way or the repetitive way. And so, if I knew that this event in the past, if I fully understood that the past doesn’t exist but the thing is our mind, I might be able to experientially understand that to be true, but my body doesn’t get it. And so, that’s why we go to different methods. We go to plant medicine, we go to therapy, we go to meditation, we do these things. Our goal at Behold is even to say, as much as we would love to See our guests again. We would love to see them as they travel to our countries. Our goal is that they go through this week and they heal what they came to look at. They see that perspective, that awareness, release it, let go of it. And they don’t have to keep doing it. They don’t have to keep going over and over, going to therapy for years. It’s something that finds a completion and a path to move forward. And so, I don’t know if that answered your question about time, but that’s how I personally look at it is the time. The past does not exist, but we have a memory or a connection. Our memories aren’t that great either. Experientially, we can get all these things. Philosophically, we can understand all these things, but then we still are showing up in our life in a way in which we’re not living in that present moment.

Minter Dial: Well, it strikes me that our past is formative, and the narratives we have about our past are sort of the bogeyman. Yet the idea of making our past perfect or all good seems like an ascetic way of living life, because life is about challenge and dealing, in my opinion, and dealing with. With how you deal with it, as opposed to hiding it away. But you also can say, well, there’s some things we just don’t want to know about and it’s okay as well. In. In the worlds of psychedelics, we. It’s a psychedelic therapy. We often talk about things like dissolution of the ego, self awareness, self-knowledge, and. And then there’s integration. How do you approach those? Are these things that you’re like vocabulary words you’re using as people start. Come to introduce them to your retreats?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. When they ask on specific questions, then of course I love talking about them. So, the disillusionment of ego, most people will call that an ego death, which I appreciate the language that you use in Ayahuasca. It is the experiment experience of a dissolvement. It’s dissolving layers. And so, I can say, you know, Sarah, raised in Texas, the daughter of Lonnie and Leanne, the sister of Delina. All of the things I was raised here, I went to this school, I had these experience, and here I am. Layers start coming off, those layers start coming off. And then I start seeing how connected I am to everything around me, all of the humans around me, nature around me, the universe. And so, that’s a disillusionment. And then I can start seeing the core to me, and then the me that I want to be, the highest Version of myself, I get this good mirror of, here’s the highest version of yourself and how you can show up with compassion and love and strength the next day and in the years to come. With bufo, I understand why they call it ego death in ayahuasca. It could be a slower process. Bufo is a very powerful and short lived process. So, it might feel a bit more like an ego death, but it will get you there very quickly and then you feel just connected. Okay, and so now you have this grand experience. What does that mean? Because we are all want to be. We all want to say, okay, but what for? Why did I do this? What was the. How did I benefit from this experience? Or how did my community or family benefit from this experience? Once we start having this awareness of. Not me as a third person, but Sarah is angry right now. Not I’m angry and then I’m reactive. It’s. I am, I am allowing this situation to make me angry. Somebody has crossed a boundary. Did they know it was a boundary? If no, do you want to tell them, take that time, yes or no? If they didn’t know all of the things, I get to be more aware and then show up with awareness. And that comes through that, that viewpoint, that different perspective, that different perspective that we gain in ceremony. The. So, that was on the first word that you used, the last word that you used, integration. So, integration is also a key to the work that we do. I’ll tell you just a funny situation I got myself in. It was the last day of the retreat. All of our guests had sat with three ceremonies. We always do traditional ceremonies. And the shaman was at the head of the table and I was continuing my conversations about integration. And so, I asked the shaman, do you have any integration tools for our guests? And he goes, integration is just made up by people in the west. Like there’s really no such thing as integration. And so, I’m sitting there trying to teach integration. And so, I said, well, can you tell me a little bit about the community that you come from? And he was saying, oh, we do ayahuasca once a month and sometimes children come. And I go, oh, so you’re, you’re. The people that are attending your ceremonies, they go back out into their community and they can relate to everybody in that community. Our guests are about to go to an airport, they’re about to go home, they’re about to go to a corporate environment or working environment or a family that will not understand this. And he goes, oh, yeah, they need integration. I was like, do you have any tools for them? And he’s like, yes, I do. And so, it is. We need the tools to. Once we see this version of ourselves that we want to be now, we are about to go get tested and if we don’t plan for those tests, then it’s like the lessons didn’t learn. So, some people think, okay, I’m going to go home and this is how I’m going to show up in my relationship or my working environment, with my colleagues, with my team. And then when they get to the airport and it’s hectic and they’re already. You’re angry and so it’s like you’re about to go to the airport, are you going to have patience? And so, that’s the bit of the integration is the prepare, have some things that you will commit to and accountability. Integration is the difference between five years after going to ayahuasca ceremony saying, oh yeah, I did ayahuasca once, it was really profound. And five years from now saying, I did ayahuasca once and it changed my life. That difference is the integration and that’s the key to it. If nobody integrates, they just went and had a profound week.

Minter Dial: Right. So, that, that clarifies this notion. But basically integration is, is how to, how to reinsert yourself in your daily life as opposed to out in the jungle where you’re surrounded by. In a safe space.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Minter Dial: When people come. You mentioned women’s retreat, and I’m just imagining that sometimes you get people who come as a group or as a couple. And, and how does that change, let’s say a women’s retreat, how is that different than dudes and women or just a dude’s retreat?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Openly. I love, I love all of them. Even in my own personal experience. I love sitting with my partner and I love sitting without him. And they’re different experiences. When I go with a group where I don’t know anybody, even though I know that they’re going to soon become my best friends, I don’t know them today. And so, I can surrender more easily to. If I’m going to ball, if I’m going to shake, if I’m going to be in a lay down position, I feel more comfortable with strangers to fully surrender and go inward. For me, if I’m with somebody that I love, it’s also a beautiful experience. I start to see them and have perspectives of them in ways that I didn’t have before and love them even more. But my experience is now not just Inward, it’s outward. And so, we always recommend for people to go alone first. If couples call and they say we want to go together, we try to get them on different retreats. If they say we don’t have the time or the space for that, then we try to get them in different rooms. And at a minimum, couples don’t stay next to each other in ceremony. So, I recommend both for group retreats with men and women. It’s really beautiful to see both energies, feminine energy and masculine energies, which I know we have both. But in our society, we get shifted in to see them supporting each other. Also the triggers that are created by each other. And because we’re in a space in which we’re being more aware and holding ourselves and each other accountable, that’s also a really beautiful experience. I get to see what comes up for me in an environment of different individuals. On the women’s retreat and the man’s retreat as well, there is the experience of I might share a bit more if I’m just with women. And I know that to be true because of our women’s retreat. And what was interesting is we had an accidental men’s retreat. It was a retreat that was open to both men and women, but only men signed up, up. And so, now we had eight men. And I even kind of, I was facilitating. And so, I would go to breakfast and then at lunch I would just let the men come together. And it was interesting to learn how much more they would share just with men. They would admit. Admit isn’t the right word, but they would share more about some of their, the parts of themselves that they don’t like. They would do that more without a woman being present. Women both ands. And women and men will share about trauma a bit more. Yeah, yeah. And so, it’s a time to really just take your masks off, be yourself. And when you’re around somebody that you can relate to, it’s a bit easier.

Minter Dial: It’s.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: I’m.

Minter Dial: I’m writing a book called the Avatar Trap, which is all about masks. So, yeah, getting, getting understanding the mask. But I, I think at some level the mask is always there. And the other thing which is interesting, Sarah, about what you said is I’ve written about empathy and, and so there’s this concept of, of empathy that’s call it cognitive empathy where you, you, you think about what the other person’s think, thinking, feeling and experiencing. And I, I regularly ask the question, who is it easier for you to be empathic with strangers, friends and family, or people at work. And, and people have different answers. So, just like you’re saying this idea of, like your partner, you. You have a certain comfort, love with, but you also come with baggage. And that can be hampering for your pure listening skills because, you know, this is the 60th time I’m hearing you say this kind of thing, which triggers. Whereas when you’re with a stranger on an airplane or, you know, whatever on public transportation, you sometimes feel freer to say who you are because when you get off, that’s the last time we see each other.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I also love the analogy of how far away somebody is from you and then getting closer to where do you start losing empathy or compassion or even your center. And so, for example, if I am walking down like a downtown of a city and somebody is on the street corner, sitting on the street corner, and they just happen to know my biggest insecurity and, and they say it to me, my first thought would be, oh, no, I think they’re either mentally ill or maybe on drugs. If I lived in L. A. I would have food in my car and I would give it to them and I would keep on walking. It would not hurt my feelings. It would not affect me emotionally at all. I would have, hopefully I would have compassion. Empathy, I see is also taking on a bit of their pain, sympathy sometimes in that situation. In the end, most people don’t want sympathy. They don’t want people to feel sorry for them. I might pretend I do if I’m sick, feel sorry for me. But my, my spirit does not want anyone to feel sorry for me. And most people don’t. Now say, I’m with my colleagues. Back in the day when I worked in an alpha ego environment, say one of them said the same thing to me. They happen to know my biggest insecurity and they said it to me. I’d be like, what a jerk. And I might even say, I bet their dad didn’t like them. So, that I could have a compassion for them to where I wouldn’t want to hit them back with the negative remark. And by the way, I don’t recommend that. That’s not the best form of compassion. It’ not a kind compassion. But in that environment, it allowed me not to get my feelings hurt. It allowed me not to get angry or to get sad. I just was able to move forward with it. And the humans that I work with now, they’re beautiful human beings. If any of them came to me and said the same thing to me, I would ask them Are you okay? Because it’s not in their nature to be unkind, but it still would not hurt my feelings. And I love the people I work with. Now if my partner said the same thing to me, I’d be like, oh, my God, how could you say that to me? And it would hurt my feelings. And so, the close closer people get to us, the more, I don’t want to say permission we give them, but the more open that we are. And even our partners shouldn’t be able to hurt our feelings. Even our partners. It’s not personal. And so, that’s also a test. Do you get mad at. The person on the street says something. Do you get mad if a colleague says something? And then to start evaluating your own emotional capacity, emotional intelligence.

Minter Dial: I just feel like pushing in one second to this idea of it’s not personal at work. I. I had a long career in large organization, and someone said that was what you just did. Yeah. Don’t take it personally. What do you mean, don’t take it personally? The thing that I did wasn’t good. And if I don’t take it personally, that means I don’t really care. So, I’ve always thought it’s reasonable to. To believe or wish to believe that people at work can take their work personally.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah.

Minter Dial: And. And therefore, have pride in it and. And investment in it. So, maybe that’s a whole other gig. But I wanted to.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: I’ll. I’ll add just a bit to this because I think you and I could probably have a conversation about this an hour long where, depending on the words that we use, we come to the same space. So, for example, I used to say when I was a teenager, I don’t care what people think. I would generally say that right before I was about to do something ridiculous so that I could kind of build this wall so I could just not care what people think. As I became older, it may be more compassionate. I realized I do care what people think, but not more than I care about myself and my own integrity and my own authenticity. I want people to like me. Life is more enjoyable when people like me. But I don’t care enough if somebody likes me to change who I am now. If somebody makes me aware that my project was crap, then maybe I would say, okay, tell me more. What can I fix? It would probably hurt my feelings because I do care. And maybe if I was in a certain state, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings. I would just take it in a way in which it would be a productive outcome. I used to Work with people where after a conversation, I said something along the lines of I forgot the words that I used. And the woman said, I’m brutally honest. And I was like, you know, you can be honest without brutality. And she would just kind of was like, that was the way that she was. And so, we also. It’s. It’s nice to be able to receive what is beneficial to us and give everything back to that person like that.

Minter Dial: It’s a really good way. And I do enjoy this idea, Sarah, that you were expressing about almost a third person to allow yourself to have the distance so you don’t get automatically triggered by some kind of reaction and then go ballistic. And then your. Your, you know, reptilian brain takes over and we’re no longer in control of everything or anything. And I think at work, this is. These are big old problems. So, sorry. In the last part, we talked about how you went from a corporate world through crypto into what you’re doing. You’re now running a business. You’re. I mean, it’s. It’s turned into a business. And I’m just wondering to what extent where you, you know, you work with vulnerability and challenges and traumas and everything. How has leading this Behold retreats organization changed your own relationship with vulnerability as a leader?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: This is something that I have had to face in Ceremony multiple times because I. One of my masks is that I always look strong. That from the outside in, I always look strong. I don’t want people, my colleagues, for example, to see weakness, because if they see weakness, maybe that means they wouldn’t follow me. That was a narrative that I used to have. And so, in Ceremony, I would sit in my meditation pose for six hours straight, and maybe tears would come down my face, but it wouldn’t be vocal. Different purges would be very private. And there was finally a point where it was a trust factor of if you are vulnerable, the team building can be more connected. People won’t be afraid of failure if they know that we are all human and that we can be vulnerable and we can be strong and still be moving through healing and expansion. That looks clean and looks messy, especially in the work that I do. We sit in ceremonies, we sit in service during retreat, but we also do our own work, which means our team, we come together and we have our ceremonies together. And I’m not doing my work if I don’t fully surrender to it because I want them to look at me as being strong. And so, I had to really step into vulnerability. And it was interesting. I also had to step into letting people be soft to me, letting people help me. And then I realized people want to help me. And the more people help me, the farther we can all go together. And that was a huge revelation. From financial marketing, financial sales, to cryptocurrency, all of those were independent positions. And then there is a realization. I can get pretty far on my own. I can get 10 times farther with people, with people that will help me. And so, I’ve surrounded myself with brilliant human beings and we help each other. And they see my vulnerability. They see. I don’t know. What do you think? Let’s work this out. I need your help. Yeah, I’ve made some mistakes by not asking for help. I paid for them.

Minter Dial: Yeah, no, go. Go alone, you micro foster, but go together. We will go further. Yeah, I’ve long said that. But I also have in my narrative the desire to rely on myself because there may be situations, because the world isn’t exactly a fuzzy, fuzzy lovey place where, where you need to rely on yourself and be accountable to yourself. And, and there. And I’ve always felt that that’s a. A necessary skill for my survival. Maybe that’s something I should work on. Sarah.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. Well, one thing that has been helpful for me or a couple things. One is that sovereignty piece. I’m not a prepper as far as, like, I don’t think about an apocalypse coming and do I have land, food, water and energy and all of the things. However, I do know that I fundamentally do not need that much. I know I want a lot. I love traveling. I love cozy beds. I love big dinners with friends. I don’t need much. And so, that piece of confidence that I have within myself that no matter what happens, I am going to be okay. Everything in this moment, I want to knock on wood because I don’t want this to manifest. But I know that I will always be okay. And even if I have two decisions, one’s not right and one’s not wrong. One is better than the other one. And I, I’m. I’m trying to figure out which one. But both will be great. And I will be okay. Not just okay, but thrive in both of those, whether I have something or nothing.

Minter Dial: Last question is around about your competition, because it’s a business. It’s becoming a business, at least in certain countries more than others. And I, I wonder to what extent you apply things like SWOT analysis or, or, you know, competitive advantages. Because at the end of the day, if integration is central to your model, it’s hard to monetize it or at least to put a specific value and concrete manifestation of it. And if, if a competitor is not really that focused on it, how do you sort of compare and contrast price, yours versus theirs? How do you deal with that sort of nitty gritty commercial aspect?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, so I probably am not going to give you the answer that you want to hear because it’s going to be a soft answer. 1 First, I don’t even use the word business. I use the organization just to make sure that I always am in integrity. And so, I don’t ever make a decision that isn’t what’s for the best of the humans involved. And the humans involved are the people that come and then our team, from the medicine man to the people who make the food, to everything. What is the best for everybody? The second one also, I also don’t use the word competition. It’s specifically in this line of work. Anybody that is doing good work, doing good work in this field is an ally. I want anyone who is called to the medicine to have access to it. And so, that means people that are willing to go to the jungle, that that’s people that are willing to do tent style. That’s also people that need to be comfortable, need to all of the, the variety of economic statuses of people that are called to the plant medicine. There are a variety of organizations that are a good fit for you. Okay, so all that being said to try to give you something that you want to hear, we do have a team that looks at how are we doing, how are other people doing and what are other people doing? And how can we. Is there something that we should also implement into our plan, into the way, the path that we’re taking? And so, we for sure look at that. We also ask the questions to stay in integrity. And so, for example, the very first person that everyone speaks to in a 3D world, you would call that a salesperson. In our world, it is somebody. You can’t sell plant medicine. Plant medicine should not be sold. People should either be guided to their strong yes or their strong no. And if you are in a, an organization that’s not sustainable, say you’re struggling, then somebody might get out of integrity and start saying just come. They might not do all the proper steps of a medical evaluation. Are you physically, mentally, emotionally ready for this now? And so, we make sure that we always stay on point with our integrity. In that process. We help people to get to their full yes, fold, no or not. Now some people, they have the calling, they have the needs. They just need to make some adjustments in their lives.

Minter Dial: So, that brings up things like who you don’t. Who you don’t want to have that. Yes. Call to it. Because I can think of many people who might have some underlying psychiatric problems which might be. Which would make that kind of an exposure and vulnerability less likely to be successful. And how do you qualify? I often talk about Sarah and I’ve written a lot about this, about how psychedelics can make, well, people better.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, it’s.

Minter Dial: It’s another gig to have ill people make them better. How do you. How do you. What line do you draw as you look at people and screen people in or out?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. So, as we can imagine, and I’m only going to use these words so that we don’t. So, we can move through this conversation. So, I hope that they’re not overly judged. But let’s take a mind that is. Well, that would do well with psychedelics. Generally that mind is more closed and we would benefit from opening. That’s a beautiful thing that psychedelics does. It helps us open. There’s. There’s some minds that are very open and that may come in the form of not seeing reality in a way in which is functionable for them. It could come in the form of hearing voices. They don’t need it to be more open. They actually need more containment. And so, our work could make them worse off. And so, we do have strict guidelines on. There’s a few key factors. 10 questions that you could know immediately if it’s a strong no. And then there’s some where large organizations, it’d be a strong note for them because they’re taking 20 people, 30 people. There are some spaces in which we would recommend a private retreat one for their own safety and then for the safety of the group. It’s not just are you going to be safe at our ceremony? It’s is everybody in that circle because you also care. Is the person to my right of me and left of me also mentally, emotionally and physically fit for this? This so that we can go through this week together? And so, we have very specific checkpoints and questions. And again, we have a medical team that works with people. Some, a lot of people are also not yet. So, they need to taper off a medication in a safe way. Yeah. So, we take all of that very seriously.

Minter Dial: Yeah, I bet you do, sir. And so, because I had one day maybe 10 years ago, I thought it’d be a great way to fix corporations. If you just take the C suite and get Them all tripping. I mean, I say that a little frivolously, but what I’m hearing from you is if there’s some CEO listening to this says it’d be really interesting for me and my team, it would be. No, as a team, individually, you can do it. And at one point, would you then still accept the idea that the team do it together? If that’s the journey that the CEO or the big boss has decided?

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah. So, we have seen both ways. And so, I’ll tell you a way in which a team came together. And perhaps psilocybin is a good team week. But ayahuasca, they. If they are willing to be vulnerable, they’ll get more out of it. If they’re not willing to be vulnerable, they’ll get something out of it. But the more you put into something, the more you get out. And so, I’ll give an example. We had a team of professors at one of the universities in Australia, and they studied consciousness and they had never done psychedelics. They. One of them had written ten books about consciousness. And so, I am, like, educationally out of my league, but I am so excited. And so, we’re having our breakfast and our lunches and after ceremonies, I’m just ready. Like, I don’t want to. You tell me, you tell me about what you think. And it was. It was fascinating to hear them share their experiences and then have dialogue with each other. One of them was a very large proponent for we are not in this dimension. We are going somewhere. My experience that he had in that ceremony, he was not in this 3D world and he thinks where he went exists. And somebody else was saying, no, it does not exist. This is what’s happening in your mind. And then they would have a dialogue about it. And I’ll tell you something that was interesting. This one that said, I’m going to another place. He was the one that had written the 10 books and he didn’t go to any other ceremony. And he wrote for the rest of the week. He has. I have 10 more books. It was somebody that had never experienced psychedelics, wrote about consciousness. And so, it just was an explosion for him. And so, we, we did accept that group. I loved the group. We would, of course, do that again if somebody is really working on trauma. And sometimes people come for healing and they get expansion. And sometimes people come for expansion. They’re like, ah, here’s something came up. And so, we always want to support people. We want to support teams. And so, we. If somebody is healthy and well, we try to lean towards. Yes. And preparing them so that they can surrender in ceremony. So, we’ve talked about integration. Preparation and processing is also two pieces. And so, if a group came together, there would be some preparation of how to surrender while your colleagues are next to you. Or don’t just have a beautiful experience that night.

Minter Dial: Exactly. There’s a little bit of letting go, isn’t there? It strikes me that Michael Pollan has been at the forefront, at least on a sort of a consumer level, talking about how to change your mind and his last book of consciousness. And it feels for me that’s a natural progression psychedelics into consciousness. So, that maybe is a full circle. Sarah, for people who are listening and have enjoyed the conversation so far, where would you like them to go? Visit? Go read. Read more. Find out more about what you guys do and offer.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yeah, so you can find us anywhere. Behold Retreats is our name and so our website is generally the first point of contact before they reach us. You can also find out us on Instagram. Behold Retreat. So, B E H O L D I hope you look us up. You’re invited. Come to a retreat. It would be all the things. And thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy to talk to you.

Minter Dial: Love it. My pleasure, Sarah. We’ll be in touch. Enjoy Portugal and maybe see you in Costa Rica.

Sarah Lynn Thomas: Yes, please.